Why are Theurophoroi so weak?

[Irishmafia2020]

In my experience playing Hellenic armies (KH, Baktria, Maks) I have found the Theurophoroi to be solid cheap units. They don't cost a lot, and I expect them to suffer 50% casualties. If you want solid line infantry, you will have wait until you get Thoraktai (if you are a faction that gets them). Otherwise, you are stuck with the limitations of your faction MICs. I myself find that Hoplites (classical and even FM bodyguard) do not fare well against phalanxes. They make great heavy infantry, but used frontally against Phalanxes even the toughest hoplites get chewed up. I tend to use hoplite phalanxes (non-phalanx despite the name) in my current KH campaign to try to counter what the Maks, Epirotes and AS throw my way. You might want to try them out as mercenaries...

[konny]

I myself find that Hoplites (classical and even FM bodyguard) do not fare well against phalanxes.

There are basically two ways of fighting phalanx with classical Hoplites:

(1) Place one unit of them in a thin line in guard mode in the way of an approaching phalanx. Don't order any attack, just stay there and block the phalanx. They won't do any damage to the phalanx, but won't suffer much casualties either. The phalanx is pinned and ready to be flank by other Hoplites, Peltasts or Thureophoroi. That's how proper Greeks would do the job.

(2) A more radical way, used by Romans, Galatians and other Barbarian folks, can also be done by Hoplites. Fall with superior numbers on a single phalanx by ordering your men to run behind the phalanx. They will start fighting as soon as they are in touch with the enemy soldiers, what is allready behind the pikes! The phalanx is broken and I have seen levy phalanxes instantly routing with more than 200 men alive when beeing attacked that way. The AI tries the same from time to time but uses Pantodapoi and the like weak units for it, who all get slaughtered when trying to get through the pikewall. KH bodyguards, Roman Extraordinarii and heavy armoured Celts will survive the charge in sufficient numbers.

[QuintusSertorius]

It would seem the stats in Unit Compare are still for 1.0, because I just pulled up the unit card for Thureophoroi and Keltohellenikoi during a battle. Both have equal experience and equal upgrades:





Keltohellenikoi don't have poorer armour. And slightly better attack and charge (even if their spears aren't as lethal). No wonder they're better at holding the line (even if that's not what Thureophoroi are designed for).

(2) A more radical way, used by Romans, Galatians and other Barbarian folks, can also be done by Hoplites. Fall with superior numbers on a single phalanx by ordering your men to run behind the phalanx. They will start fighting as soon as they are in touch with the enemy soldiers, what is allready behind the pikes! The phalanx is broken and I have seen levy phalanxes instantly routing with more than 200 men alive when beeing attacked that way. The AI tries the same from time to time but uses Pantodapoi and the like weak units for it, who all get slaughtered when trying to get through the pikewall. KH bodyguards, Roman Extraordinarii and heavy armoured Celts will survive the charge in sufficient numbers.

I might have to try that one with my Tindanotae.

[Ludens]

Keltohellenikoi don't have poorer armour. And slightly better attack and charge (even if their spears aren't as lethal). No wonder they're better at holding the line (even if that's not what Thureophoroi are designed for).

Actually, according to those screenshots, they do. They've got 9 armour and 11 skill, while thureophoroi have 11 armour and 9 skill. In other words, frontal defense is the same but Keltohellinikoi have less protection from rear attacks while thureophoroi are more vulnerable to AP weapons.

Two of the extra armour points are for the thureophoroi's greaves (the Epeirote thureophoroi skin lacks these because it was originally used for a different unit), but I am not sure where the third point comes from.

[QuintusSertorius]

Actually, according to those screenshots, they do. They've got 9 armour and 11 skill, while thureophoroi have 11 armour and 9 skill. In other words, frontal defense is the same but Keltohellinikoi have less protection from rear attacks while thureophoroi are more vulnerable to AP weapons.

Two of the extra armour points are for the thureophoroi's greaves (the Epeirote thureophoroi skin lacks these because it was originally used for a different unit), but I am not sure where the third point comes from.

What I meant was that their overall defense is identical*; in 1.0 or wherever the stats in the Unit Compare came from, Keltohellenikoi had worse overall defense by 2 points. No longer.

*Meaning the same value, not as you point out having the same kind of coverage in all situations.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Two of the extra armour points are for the thureophoroi's greaves (the Epeirote thureophoroi skin lacks these because it was originally used for a different unit), but I am not sure where the third point comes from.

Which third point. 11+9+3+1 = 9+11+3+1 (as per screenshots).
Pseudo-random factoid: as far as helmets go cheek pieces etc. are awarded some extra armour points too...

[QuintusSertorius]

Which third point. 11+9+3+1 = 9+11+3+1 (as per screenshots).
Pseudo-random factoid: as far as helmets go cheek pieces etc. are awarded some extra armour points too...

This is the thing; in 1.0 and evidently the Unit Compare packaged with 1.1, they do have different overall defense levels. In 1.1 they're the same overall, but the components that make up that defense are different.

[Ludens]

Which third point. 11+9+3+1 = 9+11+3+1 (as per screenshots).