Surprisingly bad units

[konny]

Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

[Swordmaster]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!

[LorDBulA]

Surprisingly bad units

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Dropanai: This guys are awsome.
Sure they are missing armour and shield but are butchers at meal and are dirty cheep. Can butcher much more expensive and much heavier opponents.
They do die like flies under misile fire but this is not unexpected or suprising. They have no armour or shield for crying out loud.

Elephants:
This is unit of extremes. Either they will crush enemy army in no time all will fail miserebly. There is no middle ground with this unit.
I once as Epeirote conquared whole Sicily and Itally with single army with 1 unit of unarmourd elephants. Fought 4 or 5 huge battles and each time my casualties where between 1-3%.
This was only thanks to elephants, normally fighting romans in itally I was suffering 15-50% casualties.
With Elephants I didnt have to reinforce my main army (other then organising garissons for captures cities ) through whole campaign. This is huge bang for the buck if you take into account short campaign time (saves many on upkeep ), much smaller loses (saves money both on training of new troops and upkeep while you transport them to front ).
Of course elephants are not type of unit that you keep in your army all the time. You train them for specific campaign and after you destroyed enemy full stacks and there is no huge formations to fight anymore disbands at once.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

[QuintusSertorius]

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

Ah I think 'role they're designed for' might be a bit subject to personal playing styles. To me I use *no* cavalry whatsoever to repeatedly charge whatever unit; unless I am feeling otherwise really confident about it.

Instead I use my cavalry to:
1) Dispatch enemy cavalry with (one point to the Thessalians or Brihentin for that matter)
2) Dispatch lighter enemy missile troops: no point in attacking guys with pointy sticks...
3) Quickly push back some enemy units which are getting a bit too succesful for my liking You'd be amazed at what a full charge focused on the corner or a small gap of a unit can do when that unit is already in full melee.
4) Destroy routing units
5) Break shaken or wavering units; or at least speed up the process.
6) Break enemy bodyguards. Heavy cavalry with kopeis? Hell, yeah!

Seriously: units of Thessalian heavy cavalry tend to be extremly valuable when dealing with an endless steam of Ptolemaioi bodyguard cavalry... Especially if you can't afford or can't get your hands on anything better (Kinsmen or better yet, Hetairoi).
===========================================

Also someone mentioned Scythed Chariots as being bad? What has he/she been doing to those?! Best thing to break those annoying 'surprisingly good units' the enemy AI tends to field -- I mean Hoplitai Haploi, Peltastai and the like. Very useful against a lot of cavalry also.

[QuintusSertorius]

I use cavalry for the following tasks:
1) Keep other cavalry away from my skirmishers
2) Keep other cavalry away from the flanks or rear of my line troops
3) [With light cavalry] Roam about behind the enemy front line, messing with their morale and firing missiles into their backs
4) [With fast mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi] Hunt down the enemy general*
5) Whittle down numbers and reduce the morale of already engaged enemy infantry, by charging to their rear at full pelt; pull out once contact is made, repeat and rinse
6) Drive off, or even kill enemy skirmishers - especially their slingers
7) [For horse-archers] Push enemy horse archers away from effective range on my infantry, especially my slingers
8) Kill routing enemies

Number 5) is the main one I use any heavies for, once the entire enemy force is engaged fighting someone and so they can't throw infantry in the way of a charge before it reaches full speed and levelled lances. I don't leave them engaged in melee, but pull them out again if the unit hasn't broken, retreat to charging distance and go again. Units like Curepos are brilliant at this once you've used up all your javelins, they have AP lances so get a lot of kills. Because of their stamina, they can do it repeatedly too. Sure you lose two or three of them each time, but it's worth it for the result.

Indeed often just having your cavalry moving around behind the enemy will start pushing their morale in the direction of routing.

Now I didn't list dispatch enemy cavalry because often they'll come to me, and my infantry can kill them with much fewer losses. Or better yet, while they're pinned fighting my infantry in melee, I can charge them. In a recent battle I killed some of those Hellenic Cataphracts that way, they charged the Thrakian Peltasts guarding my left flank, so an FM and unit of Curepos swept out wide then charged in on them. They lost almost half their number in the first charge, and leaving the FM melee-ing with them, I pulled the Curepos out and charged again. Kataphraktoi broke, game over heavy cavalry.

*Though this is often unnecessary since he suicide-charges my front line most of the time

[Irishmafia2020]

Peltastai Makedonikai - A very good unit! I love this unit and I will defend their prowess. They have won a number of battles for me against elite non-phalanx infantry and cavalry.

Thueroperoi (spelling) - their role is to be cheap, but capable soldiers, like the Hastati of Rome. Expect them to take causalities, but if they die, at least they are cheap to replace. If that is not your attitude, then this unit is very disappointing (I certainly was initially).

Successor Medium Cavalry- like Thueroperoi on horserback. Cheap and die like flies, but widely recruitable - Any other expectation will lead to disappointment.

Thessalian Heavy Cav - I agree that they are not fantastic. I tend to recruit Greek Noble Cavalry instead if I have the local option. They suffer too many causalities in contrast to Companion Cav. You might be better off throwing away Successor medium units than investing in Thessalian. On the other hand, in the west (against Rome, Greece) they are pretty strong.

My disappointing units -

Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.

Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.

Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry - Virtually useless - upgrade your MIC and get the riders instead.

Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...

Spartiates - Solid killers, but they are expensive, and you have to have a level 5 MIC in Sparta to get them. In contrast, the Level 4 elite hoplites (I forget their name) that you get from the other Greek cities are simply better. That is what makes the Spartans (slightly) disappointing.

Galatian Wild men - Like the Spartans, they are disappointing only when compared to their peers. The Geseatae (spelling) are more powerful and have better morale. I was disappointed that the Galatians were not their equal.

East Coast Levies - From Arabia - they seem to match their opponents in stats, but their morale is so low that their inevitable rout after suffering 5% casualties will probably take the rest of your army with them. Use these guys for Garrison duty where they will have to fight to the death. Never take them on an offensive campaign.

Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.

Those are some controversial choices for "bad" units, but relative to my expectations of their capabilities, I found each of these units to be disappointing.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

As Getai I have a nice way of protecting drapnai until I can make enough money to recruit Dacian phalanxes into my field armies. I have groups of horse-archers raid enemy stacks and destroy missile units. The enemy usually never replaces them.

[Irishmafia2020]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!

tell me about it... those armored elephants cost a fortune, but having faced them myself, I can attest that normal skirmishers will not do the usual trick against them. On the same subject, I lost several crushing defeats against Pyrrhos at the beginning of my current KH campaign because he kept flanking me out the forest with the elephants. When I finally killed the bastards in a bad loss (for me -I rarely lose) I thought that it was worthwhile trade. I sent a spy to Pyrrhos' army and the elephants had all completely healed from the battle... He had a full complement! Bad enough that they can be unkillable, but worse that they are resurrected from the dead!

[Tyrfingr]

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

[konny]

I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

There are no units with three weapons in EB1 (impossible with the RTW engine). The Camillan Principes have underhand spears as secondary weapon and are much weaker in close combat than the Camillan Triarii, who are by far the best unit for the Romans in that periode beside the Extraordinarii.

[Limbs]

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

I have to disagree with you on that one. They proved to be the invaluable against both Carthage and the gauls. They can hold the line long enough for a flanking move or something of that sort. They are the only capable unit available early on fpr the romans. The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. And after a few hard battles they can be retrained to become invinsible. They can't be bought straight away since they are a tad expensive, but after one or two conquered cities they should find a place in your army.

[johnhughthom]

The rest have their pilums and after that it's rout time. .

I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.

[AlexanderSextus]

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

Are you kidding me???? These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them.

On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job?

[Olaf The Great]

Are you kidding me???? These guys were the only ones that kept the Aedui from taking Bononia when i was transitioning to Polybian legions. They're the only Camillian unit (that i know of) that can stand up to the Gaesatae long enough for me to get skirmishers/cavalry behind them.

On that note, Now that i can't use them anymore, what Polybian Era Infantry can combat the Gaesatae? Are Polybian Triarii good enough or are the Polybian Principes better suited for the job?

I'd say Extraordinarii

[teh1337tim]

I'd say Extraordinarii

id say triarii
pedits tire out too fast for my liking
hell one battle
i lost 3/4 of my hastati and principles to3 reformed pikeman,hyspistia, elite peltastai

they saved my ass taking out all of the peltast,reformed,hetairo, everything

:)

worse united ever...
id say the..

ah yes
who would love the german levy sperman
totally hate them
easy to tire
no armor
killed by every troops that has missles
1 unit rout, everybody routs

:S

[johnhughthom]

I would say pelt the hell out of the Gaesatae with whatever you have, then pin them down with Triarii and get your Principes to attack them from behind.

[Senatvs Povlvsqve Romanvs]

The Camillian Triarii ain't that good, I usually find them too expensive early on in the campaign and I much rather prefer the Camillian Principes, which got Pilums to throw before a charge, spears to skewer cavalry with and swords for infantry.

I agree with this.

Camillian Triarii is not bad to face against cavarly, buth Camilian Principes can do just as impressive job as them with less recruiting and upkeep coast.

Do not include them in an army unless they volunteer

[QuintusSertorius]

Camillian Principes don't have swords, units can only have two weapons.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Triarii are better than Principes. I always train Triarii because they take fewer losses. Since the Principes aren't a sword unit, it doesn't really make sense to train them instead of Triarii unless you're very low on money. If Camillian Principes were a sword unit, then you could have some Pricipes in a legion to deal with enemy infantry and some Triarii to deal with cavalry. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to train Principes. Triarii do much better against everything than Principes. If you want a sword and pila unit in the Camillian times, just recruit Hastati.

I didn't think the Roman bodyguard was that bad. I mean, it doesn't compare to the Pahlavan or other nomadic bodyguards as you have said(who have bows in addition to lances) but it's better than many other Western bodyguards.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

That's quite true.

After all I think there are no "bad" units, every unit has its use. Every unit mentioned in my previous post I have readily employed in my respective campaigns so far as Carthage or Makedonia. EB is best played role-played. One shouldn't go purely after stats and upkeep.

[QuintusSertorius]

Roleplaying is precisely why I do use Thureophoroi, in spite of not thinking they're brilliant.