Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

[Hax]

Yes.

Mark Antony was awesome though. Great character.

[Juggernaut]

Hi.
I have 2 questions.

1st, Not that I want to doubt the team, but how accurate are the equipment of Camillan legions?
Do we actually know that principes in early 3rd century BC used spears, and Romans didn't use mail until the end of 1st Punic war?
IIRC the Celts invented mail in 5th century BC, so I thought the Romans would have adopted it earlier.
And were the Hastati really unarmored for this period?

2nd, what is the team's opinion on re-enactors?
I am thinking of joining one, so I appreciate if you can give me a general opinon on how accurate they are.

[Victor1234]

Well, my question mainly concerns the Seleucids....how did their administrative system work, when it was working (ie, the rare few times the satraps weren't in revolt)?

Basically, I'm looking for how much autonomy they had (could they launch a war against a nearby entity by themselves? How was the administration of their satrapy affected by the King, etc)

How were satrapy taxes handled? Did the King have his own guys to collect them, did the satrap collect them and then send a portion on to the King (and if so, what %)?

What was the currency system used? The FAQ seems to hint that everyone apart from Egypt and Carthage used the Attic system, but specifics would be nice....

Was the cult worship of Seleukos really that widespread, that there were temples for him and everything?

[Ibrahim]

Yes.

Mark Antony was awesome though. Great character.

and a great dick

anyways, the seleucid system of governance work the same way as the Acaemenid dynasty: the king was viewed as divine, and was considered head of state. then came the satraps; usually family, but also "trusted" men. their job was to collect the taxes and bring it to the king. they also kept peace, maintaine a garrison, and dealt with any problems in the king's abcense. in other words, the system was relatively decentralized. this is part of the reason why they fell; a guy can easily usurp the throne for himself. he can secretly mint coins, not to the king, but himself. he can even use his army to attack the satrapies. TPC has better info on this.

the kingdom used the same basic system most greek stats used (mnai, staters, drachmas., etc)

[Hax]

Actually, I think the guy that can tell you most about the Seleucid Empire would be abou.

[||Lz3||]

I've another question when the romans overthrown the senate , did they still call themselves SPQR ? or something like roman empire? (if the later , how was it called ?)

[Ibrahim]

I've another question when the romans overthrown the senate , did they still call themselves SPQR ? or something like roman empire? (if the later , how was it called ?)

of course they still called themselves that (SPQR). later on though they more of tencalled the place "Imperium Romanum" which later => "kingdom of the romans" in greek (as the byzantine empire).
also the senate was not overthrown by Octavius; it didn't even lose all of its powers (at least in theory). that was still a body to reckon with, as a few emprerors found. though admittedly the praetoriani were far more dangerous.

[||Lz3||]

even on the late empire? 200-300 AC (I dont remember the exact date of the empire division)

[Ludens]

even on the late empire? 200-300 AC (I dont remember the exact date of the empire division)

The Roman Senate was still around in the fifth century AD, when the Empire had been split up and reunited several times already. It just wasn't important anymore.

[||Lz3||]

and did they have eastern and western senates?

[Swordmaster]

and did they have eastern and western senates?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Senate

[Atilius]

1st, Not that I want to doubt the team, but how accurate are the equipment of Camillan legions? Do we actually know that principes in early 3rd century BC used spears,...?

The ancient sources don't give us much information on the equipment of soldiers of the Camillan army. Livy's description mentions only that the Principes are "furnished with superior weapons". We do know that the Servian 2nd class (which can reasonably be considered the precursor of the the Principes) fought with a spear and that the Polybian Principes used a short sword. Dionysios of Halikarnassos (Book 20) mentions that the Principes wielded spears during the Pyrric war. That tips the balance for us, though we can't say for certain we're correct.

Do we actually know ... Romans didn't use mail until the end of 1st Punic war?

It's possible that a very small minority did. But writing about the Roman army of roughly 160 BC, Polybios implies that only fairly wealthy legionaries wore mail.

And were the Hastati really unarmored for this period?

The Servian 3rd class (roughly speaking, predecessors of the Hastati) apparently didn't wear body armor. The truth is probably that some Hastati of Camillan armies wore body armor and some didn't. But for game purposes our units must have uniform equipment. If we give them a pectorale/kardiophylax, they are no different from Polybian Hastati, so they've been portrayed as unarmored.

[Juggernaut]

The ancient sources don't give us much information on the equipment of soldiers of the Camillan army. Livy's description mentions only that the Principes are "furnished with superior weapons". We do know that the Servian 2nd class (which can reasonably be considered the precursor of the the Principes) fought with a spear and that the Polybian Principes used a short sword. Dionysios of Halikarnassos (Book 20) mentions that the Principes wielded spears during the Pyrric war. That tips the balance for us, though we can't say for certain we're correct.

It's possible that a very small minority did. But writing about the Roman army of roughly 160 BC, Polybios implies that only fairly wealthy legionaries wore mail.

The Servian 3rd class (roughly speaking, predecessors of the Hastati) apparently didn't wear body armor. The truth is probably that some Hastati of Camillan armies wore body armor and some didn't. But for game purposes our units must have uniform equipment. If we give them a pectorale/kardiophylax, they are no different from Polybian Hastati, so they've been portrayed as unarmored.

Does the team think the transition from "Camillan" to "Polybian" happened after or before the 2nd Punic war?

[brymht]

All,

Currently I'm adding a few units to the historical units lists. 2 of them are mercenary general types. I would like to post this question and request the community assist me in getting them as historically accurate possible. Ibrahim, any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

1. Arab Chieftain : This will be very similar in appearance to the Arab Cavalry, with higher attack and charge, due to thier status as full time retainers for the local Arab prince. Would they wear any additional armor? Was this common for chieftains of the time? How would they differ statistically from any other Arab cavalry?

2. Judean King : Basically, Herod. A puppet local King of Judea; posted to keep the local population pacified by any of the powers to occupy Judea as a type 4 government.

What would thier bodyguard entail? Would they simply be greeks? I would think they would need to be part of the local population. Possibly something similar to the Mesopotamian Spearmen?


3. Also, I'd like to create some kind of regional unit in Judea (slinger perhaps?) and in Phoenicia; since this area exists as a "black hole" for regional recruitment at the moment, specifically for the Romans. What was recruited around this time period from this location which would have doled themselves out to a local puppet government. Slingers?

Here are the other units I'm adding as part of my mini mod for EB1.1 Alex. they are pretty much built, however.

Celtiberian Heavy Spearmen
Syracusan Slingers

[MeinPanzer]

All,

Currently I'm adding a few units to the historical units lists. 2 of them are mercenary general types. I would like to post this question and request the community assist me in getting them as historically accurate possible. Ibrahim, any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

1. Arab Chieftain : This will be very similar in appearance to the Arab Cavalry, with higher attack and charge, due to thier status as full time retainers for the local Arab prince. Would they wear any additional armor? Was this common for chieftains of the time? How would they differ statistically from any other Arab cavalry?

At the moment, most of the Sabaean units are unfortunately far from historically accurate. For one, there is no evidence of Arabian cavalry carrying shields during the EB timeframe, or before Islam for that matter. If they would have worn any armour, it would have been lamellar like the Sabaean Medium Cavalry wear, but without a helmet (as helmets seem to have been very rare in pre-Islamic Arabia). Note that almost all heavy Arabian cavalry were lancers and not javelinmen, so the unit would probably be a lancer without helmet wearing a cuirass of bronze oblong lamellar plates.

2. Judean King : Basically, Herod. A puppet local King of Judea; posted to keep the local population pacified by any of the powers to occupy Judea as a type 4 government.

What would thier bodyguard entail? Would they simply be greeks? I would think they would need to be part of the local population. Possibly something similar to the Mesopotamian Spearmen?

Regardless of ethnicity, they would most likely be armed as thureophoroi- see for instance the "hundred-killers" of Alexander Jannaeus in the early first century BC with their bronze-faced thureoi (Josephus, Antiquities 13.12.5).

3. Also, I'd like to create some kind of regional unit in Judea (slinger perhaps?) and in Phoenicia; since this area exists as a "black hole" for regional recruitment at the moment, specifically for the Romans. What was recruited around this time period from this location which would have doled themselves out to a local puppet government. Slingers?

Slingers would probably be the most general units, but you could also include some of the other cities and peoples around Judaea who were hostile to the Judaeans- Idumaeans, for instance, who furnished mercenaries for the Seleucid army. For Phoenicia you could also include the hostile Arabs who are mentioned around the Anti-Lebanon.

[brymht]

Thank you sir! I appreciate the advice.

1. Are you certain the bodyguards of local chieftains would have worn bronze in the Arabian heat?

2. I'm not familiar with this. I'm tempted to build a thureophoroi unit with fairly decent stats which looked a bit more akin to the mesopotamian spearmen. How would they fair against other thureophoroi, stat wise?

3. I was actually considering making arab units recruitable in phoenicia; as well as Cylesian Pirates (if they're still around with 1.1) and create a Judean Levy unit (basically retired or rusty Judean Spearmen from the Ptolemy and Selucid armies) and Judean Slingers; both only available at the maxmimum level of type 4 governments.

Is there any historical basis for this?

[MeinPanzer]

Thank you sir! I appreciate the advice.

1. Are you certain the bodyguards of local chieftains would have worn bronze in the Arabian heat?

The (very few) finds of armour from Arabia from around the EB timeframe are bronze. Some lamellar plates found at Jabal al-Emalah from the first centuries AD are bronze with iron rivets.

2. I'm not familiar with this. I'm tempted to build a thureophoroi unit with fairly decent stats which looked a bit more akin to the mesopotamian spearmen. How would they fair against other thureophoroi, stat wise?

I'm really not sure, to be honest, as I'm not at all familiar with Herod's army. However, if you can get a hold of it, "Armies of the Hasmonaeans & Herod: From Hellenistic to Roman Frameworks" (Texte & Studien Zum Antiken Judentum Series, No 25) is an excellent source. As I mentioned before, Alexander Jannaeus' elite troops (8,000 in number) made up the front lines and were called "hekatontamachoi," which literally means "hundred-fighters," sometimes translated more dramatically "hundred-killers," which presumably referred to the number of men they could defeat, in which case they must have been highly effective troops.

3. I was actually considering making arab units recruitable in phoenicia; as well as Cylesian Pirates (if they're still around with 1.1) and create a Judean Levy unit (basically retired or rusty Judean Spearmen from the Ptolemy and Selucid armies) and Judean Slingers; both only available at the maxmimum level of type 4 governments.

Is there any historical basis for this?

I'm not so sure about Judaeans being recruitable as mercenaries, especially under the Hasmonaeans, but if you use "Judaean" as an umbrella term for the Semitic peoples living around modern Israel (Idumaeans, Samaritans, etc.), then it would probably work well enough historically.

[brymht]

Samaritans were referred to as "Judeans" by the romans and the successor; and they served everywhere. I think there's definately a case to be made for Judean Levies; but not necessarily as mercs. They will probably only be able to be recruited in the higher level MICs for someone who took the time to setup a type 4 government; and will be better than average levy troops, since many were probably veterans from sucessor wars.

It also appears; after a bit of research, that Herod's and Agrippa II's personal bodyguards were made of of Gauls, Germans and Thracians! This really makes a lot of sense for a puppet Hasmonean King; as opposed to an actually Independent King of the Hasmonean line. A puppet king might have a lot more difficulty trusting Judeans with his personal security; due to the political and almost nationalistic climate in Judea at the time.

From the little I've been able to read, it appears that this would be the majority of the Judean forces. The 'Temple Guard' which was spoken of the in the Gospels may or may not have existed. I'm leaning away from making this unit at the moment.

[Atilius]

Does the team think the transition from "Camillan" to "Polybian" happened after or before the 2nd Punic war?

The game's requirements for the Polybian reform make it clear to me that earlier members believed it had taken place before 2nd Punic war. I agree with that.

[Ibrahim]

there is evidence that the dress was different too (forgot to mention that). Ammianus Marcellenus mentions that the Arabs wore bright cloaks, and were naked waist down (the EB bibliographis in www.europabarbarorum.com have a translation); colors were typically leaning toawrds the dark hues (this is from a dicription in jewish cannonical law, whereby the blue that was mention was compared to an arabs dark clothes). this style is also shown in the sunna, and is reffered to as as-samma' (lit: barer; one that bares). it is basically like a greek himation, only it was worn withon the chiton
, so baring the groin area (hence the name). it is the one on the far left in this picture (all are pre islamic):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

what Ammianus has to say(again matches a good deal of what the Arabs themselves had to say):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ammianus Marcellinus: The Roman History, Book XIV.iv.1-7. , c. 380 CE

Book XIV.4: At this time also the Saracens, a race whom it is never desirable to have either for friends or enemies, ranging up and down the country, if ever they found anything, plundered it in a moment, like rapacious hawks who, if from on high they behold any prey, carry it off with a rapid swoop, or, if they fail in their attempt, do not tarry. And although, in recounting the career of the Prince Marcus, and once or twice subsequently, I remember having discussed the manners of this people, nevertheless I will now briefly enumerate a few more particulars concerning them.

Among these tribes, whose primary origin is derived from the cataracts of the Nile and the borders of the Blemmyae, all the men are warriors of equal rank; half naked, clad in colored cloaks down to the waist, overrunning different countries, with the aid of swift and active horses and speedy camels, alike in times of peace and war. Nor does any member of their tribe ever take plow in hand or cultivate a tree, or seek food by the tillage of the land; but they are perpetually wandering over various and extensive districts, having no home, no fixed abode or laws; nor can they endure to remain long in the same climate, no one district or country pleasing them for a continuance.

Their life is one continued wandering; their wives are hired, on special covenant, for a fixed time; and that there may be some appearance of marriage in the business, the intended wife, under the name of a dowry, offers a spear and a tent to her husband, with a right to quit him after a fixed day, if she should choose to do so. And it is inconceivable with what eagerness the individuals of both sexes give themselves up to matrimonial pleasures.

But as long as they live they wander about with such extensive and perpetual migrations, that the woman is married in one place, brings forth her children in another, and rears them at a distance from either place, no opportunity of remaining quiet being ever granted to her. They all live on venison, and are further supported on a great abundance of milk, and on many kinds of herbs, and on whatever birds they can catch by fowling. And we have seen a great many of them wholly ignorant of the use of either corn or wine.

mind you this is from the 4th-7th centuries AD. it may have been similar to these items in EB's timeframe, but not sure.

swords were probably typical of the area of the middle east=straight. javelins were actually associated with Aethiopeans, at least in the timeperiod I'm aware of (some arabs did use them-but it was rare). also, like the romani, chain armor did start to replace scale armor (though never completely), at least in the late pre-islamic era (there are a few references to the mail coiff being used by then on helms).

also worth noting is that city folk wore stitched clothing, as apposed to what you just saw (so urban troops in EB Saba'=somewhat accurate). this is known due to the writings of Ibn-Khaldun (again this applies to the 4-7th centuries; Ibn khaldun was after this period).

[Ibrahim]

@brymt: there is evidence that the dress was different too (forgot to mention that). Ammianus Marcellenus mentions that the Arabs wore bright cloaks, and were naked waist down (the EB bibliographis in www.europabarbarorum.com have a translation); colors were typically leaning toawrds the dark hues (this is from a dicription in jewish cannonical law, whereby the blue that was mention was compared to an arabs dark clothes). this style is also shown in the sunna, and is reffered to as as-samma' (lit: barer; one that bares). it is basically like a greek himation, only it was worn withon the chiton
, so baring the groin area (hence the name). it is the one on the far left in this picture (all are pre islamic):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

what Ammianus has to say(again matches a good deal of what the Arabs themselves had to say):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ammianus Marcellinus: The Roman History, Book XIV.iv.1-7. , c. 380 CE

Book XIV.4: At this time also the Saracens, a race whom it is never desirable to have either for friends or enemies, ranging up and down the country, if ever they found anything, plundered it in a moment, like rapacious hawks who, if from on high they behold any prey, carry it off with a rapid swoop, or, if they fail in their attempt, do not tarry. And although, in recounting the career of the Prince Marcus, and once or twice subsequently, I remember having discussed the manners of this people, nevertheless I will now briefly enumerate a few more particulars concerning them.

Among these tribes, whose primary origin is derived from the cataracts of the Nile and the borders of the Blemmyae, all the men are warriors of equal rank; half naked, clad in colored cloaks down to the waist, overrunning different countries, with the aid of swift and active horses and speedy camels, alike in times of peace and war. Nor does any member of their tribe ever take plow in hand or cultivate a tree, or seek food by the tillage of the land; but they are perpetually wandering over various and extensive districts, having no home, no fixed abode or laws; nor can they endure to remain long in the same climate, no one district or country pleasing them for a continuance.

Their life is one continued wandering; their wives are hired, on special covenant, for a fixed time; and that there may be some appearance of marriage in the business, the intended wife, under the name of a dowry, offers a spear and a tent to her husband, with a right to quit him after a fixed day, if she should choose to do so. And it is inconceivable with what eagerness the individuals of both sexes give themselves up to matrimonial pleasures.

But as long as they live they wander about with such extensive and perpetual migrations, that the woman is married in one place, brings forth her children in another, and rears them at a distance from either place, no opportunity of remaining quiet being ever granted to her. They all live on venison, and are further supported on a great abundance of milk, and on many kinds of herbs, and on whatever birds they can catch by fowling. And we have seen a great many of them wholly ignorant of the use of either corn or wine.

mind you this is from the 4th-7th centuries AD. it may have been similar to these items in EB's timeframe, but not sure.

swords were probably typical of the area of the middle east=straight. javelins were actually associated with Aethiopeans, at least in the timeperiod I'm aware of (some arabs did use them-but it was rare). also, like the romani, chain armor did start to replace scale armor (though never completely), at least in the late pre-islamic era (there are a few references to the mail coiff being used by then on helms).

also worth noting is that city folk wore stitched clothing, as apposed to what you just saw (so urban troops in EB Saba'=somewhat accurate). this is known due to the writings of Ibn-Khaldun (again this applies to the 4-7th centuries; Ibn khaldun was after this period)

this was all meant for a mini mod of ibfd: all I need is a modeller..

[MeinPanzer]

Unfortunately, Ibrahim, almost all of that information relates to the late pre-Islamic Arabians, as you say, and then only the northwestern ones at that. Depictions of soldiers and civilians from around the EB timeframe show tunics being worn which stretch down to the knees or lower and without any kind of cloak wrapped around the body.

Swords were either about a metre in length, straight, and double-edged; quite small (perhaps slightly longer than a half a metre) single-edged chopping swords, kind of looking like a modern kitchen knife; or shorter versions of the straight long sword, being closer to daggers in length.

[Ibrahim]

Unfortunately, Ibrahim, almost all of that information relates to the late pre-Islamic Arabians, as you say, and then only the northwestern ones at that. Depictions of soldiers and civilians from around the EB timeframe show tunics being worn which stretch down to the knees or lower and without any kind of cloak wrapped around the body.

Swords were either about a metre in length, straight, and double-edged; quite small (perhaps slightly longer than a half a metre) single-edged chopping swords, kind of looking like a modern kitchen knife; or shorter versions of the straight long sword, being closer to daggers in length.

yeah, I was worried about that part. at least they are of use in the ibfd mod

hey, can you guide me a bit on the manathirah? I know they weren't too different with the nomad recruits, but what of the nobles?

[Juggernaut]

The game's requirements for the Polybian reform make it clear to me that earlier members believed it had taken place before 2nd Punic war. I agree with that.

OK, thanks for clearing that up

[Celtic_Punk]

what part of central europe did the celts come from?

all i know is that they originated in central europe like around austria (coincidentally i believe that area falls in where the only Heidelbergensis bones have been found)

[fenix3279]

what part of central europe did the celts come from?

all i know is that they originated in central europe like around austria (coincidentally i believe that area falls in where the only Heidelbergensis bones have been found)

The greater part of them lived in modern day France. As for where they first originated, I'm afraid I don't know.

[Ludens]

Why do Hellenic officers (I mean the unit leaders, not generals) use such phalangite shields? It makes sense for the standard bearers, as these need to have their left hand free, however the others could afford to use a larger shield.

[Zarax]

Who was the last kingdom to use the classical hoplite/phalangite stile of warfare? When did it end?

[Ibrahim]

Ptolemaioi...I think..

[Jolt]

My question isn't really in EB's timeframe, nor do I even know if there is an Alexandrian specialist among these forums, but what the heck.

One thing I wondered recently was about the history about the non-Aegean Greek Islands (Rhodos, Crete and Cyprus). What happened to these during the conflict between Persia and Macedonia, under Alexander? How did those come within the Macedonian influence? Normally, I hear comments when Alexander captured Phoenicia and Egypt that the mighty Persian fleet, who had always threatened to cut off the supply lines, lost all it's home ports, and (I suppose) was thus forced to surrender. But what about Cyprus? Wasn't it aligned with the Persian Empire? The only part I remember seeing the island play was by reinforcing Alexander with ships during the Tyrian campaign.

And what happened in Crete throughout the Alexandrian expansion? Crete is unknown to me when it comes to interactions with the Alexandrian Empire.

If anyone knows the histories of those islands during the tiems of Alexander and wishes to tell them, I wouldn't mind hearing them! ^_^