Split in Church of England

[Kralizec]

Can somebody explain to me what prayers to saints is all about, anyway? Even as a non-christian, the practice seems to be silly, if not watered down polytheism.

[CountArach]

Church Schisms - The greatest spectator sport ever.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Can somebody explain to me what prayers to saints is all about, anyway? Even as a non-christian, the practice seems to be silly, if not watered down polytheism.

Prayers THROUGH Saints. Saints are our intercessors. If you believe that people live after death and can pray, maybe they get better reception if they are already in heaven?

We have "Patron Saints" because they provide an example of how better to carry our crosses. They are not Gods or anything like that. I used to believe it was a round about way of being polytheistic, but if done correctly it is simply a more personal way of praying for/with a loved one or motivational figure. A different angle if you will.

think of it as a letter sent to God/Father/Son/Holy Spirit Care-Of St. so and so.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Church Schisms - The greatest spectator sport ever.

I am incredibly interested in them. I went to a Mets game and all I could think about was arguing about Politics and Religion.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Prayers THROUGH Saints. Saints are our intercessors. If you believe that people live after death and can pray, maybe they get better reception if they are already in heaven?

We have "Patron Saints" because they provide an example of how better to carry our crosses. They are not Gods or anything like that. I used to believe it was a round about way of being polytheistic, but if done correctly it is simply a more personal way of praying for/with a loved one or motivational figure. A different angle if you will.

think of it as a letter sent to God/Father/Son/Holy Spirit Care-Of St. so and so.

FYI this is a problem MANY other Christians have with Catholicism because they believe christ was the only intercessor between man and God.

[ICantSpellDawg]

FYI this is a problem MANY other Christians have with Catholicism because they believe christ was the only intercessor between man and God.

"In Christian practice, intercessory prayer is the act of one person praying for or on behalf of another"

"Intercession in liturgical Protestant churches (as well as in the Anglican Church) is a regular part of the worship service, often spoken by one or more people with the congregation responding, "Hear our prayer." Protestant intercession is usually by the living and for the living, although many Anglo-Catholics and Lutherans share the Roman Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints (see above)."

"There is some evidence of a Jewish belief in intercession, both in the form of the paternal blessings passed down from Abraham to his children, and 2 Maccabees, where Judas Maccabaeus sees the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army."
- Wiki on intercession.

Do you ever ask your mother and father to pray for someone? What about a friend? Why would it be different to ask someone who is no longer alive? We are supposed to pray for the dead, why not pray along with them? Remembrances are a big part of Christianity - you just need to make sure that you are doing it in a way Not insulting to God. To invoke their name in the hopes of achieving an outcome isn't what I'm talking about. Praying in community with them is another thing altogether. Praying with them because they are a patron of a specific thing gives you perspective on that thing as well as it brings you into a prayer community with those passed.

I'm saying that a number of Anglo-Catholics respect the more appropriate way of asking saints to pray for them or loved ones. You arn't asking for any god-like treatment from them, just for them to pray to God as you or your family would while you reflect on their experiences. Individual Anglican/Episcopal churches are free to decide their own opinions on the issue and many are in line with Rome.

I don't think that the differences are as substantial as some may claim.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't like the idea of praying through Saints. You do not have to pray to someone to put in a good word to God for you.

And becoming a Saint does not give them an advantage in prayer over anything else. If you pray properly, you should believe 100% that your prayer will be answered, and so therefore people should not have to pray through saints.

If you feel a Saint may pray better than yourself (in having more faith)... I am not sure on this. If God would not hear you, then the Saint would probably not either. There is certainly no reference in the Bible to this happening.

It may be an idea, I suppose. As long as it remains a case of praying through the Saints, rather than to them directly.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I don't like the idea of praying through Saints. You do not have to pray to someone to put in a good word to God for you.

And becoming a Saint does not give them an advantage in prayer over anything else. If you pray properly, you should believe 100% that your prayer will be answered, and so therefore people should not have to pray through saints.

If you feel a Saint may pray better than yourself (in having more faith)... I am not sure on this. If God would not hear you, then the Saint would probably not either. There is certainly no reference in the Bible to this happening.

It may be an idea, I suppose. As long as it remains a case of praying through the Saints, rather than to them directly.

Praying individually and in community is important. I'm not sure why anyone should be left out of it, living or passed, particularly if they might have insight into your particular dilemna.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't like the idea of praying through Saints. You do not have to pray to someone to put in a good word to God for you.

And becoming a Saint does not give them an advantage in prayer over anything else. If you pray properly, you should believe 100% that your prayer will be answered, and so therefore people should not have to pray through saints.

If you feel a Saint may pray better than yourself (in having more faith)... I am not sure on this. If God would not hear you, then the Saint would probably not either. There is certainly no reference in the Bible to this happening.

It may be an idea, I suppose. As long as it remains a case of praying through the Saints, rather than to them directly.

Gah! For a thousand years Scotland has been a country faithful to God and the Mother Curch. And now you nefarious blasphemists scoff at the plight of your martyrs and snub at the Mother of God! Saint Andrew turns in his grave at your blithe heresy!

Repent, sinner, repent! A thousand Hail Mary's to cleanse your your soul!

As you are reading this, I am writing a letter of complaint to the BBC, demanding all their presenters wear ostentatious crosses from now on. Europe shall be won back for its native civilisation!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Scotland is a Calvinist country and always will be! And down with the nationalists who look back to the days of Alba and see Catholicism as the religion of the nation. Rome said you were heretics!

John Knox will be spinning in his grave...

[Reverend Joe]

And thus we see the problem of organized religion. No figuring everything out for yourself... it ALWAYS has to be about everybody else.

[Cronos Impera]

Scotland is a Calvinist country and always will be! And down with the nationalists who look back to the days of Alba and see Catholicism as the religion of the nation. Rome said you were heretics!

John Knox will be spinning in his grave...

Come on, Calvin was a Puritan bastard and all other Christianity knows it.
If you can accept the fact that sex outside marrriage, drinking and all other small misdemeanours ware punishable by death under Calvinist jurisdiction than you can agree that Henry VIII was a visionary and a sensible man with a Christian vision.

[Rhyfelwyr]

As Calvin would say - "I hope tiny chickens dig out your eyes a thousand times!"