Armchair Generals in the power.

[Veho Nex]

Iraq is a reconstruction. Just like Germany and Japan. Handover back to the nation after recontruction also happened in both Germany and Japan.

If I'm correct, the rebuilding of Japan and Germany were a simple matter of supplying a bit of cash and man power, while rebuilding Iraq is almost as if we have to keep a garrison there to make sure it doesn't crash down on its self.

The aim of rebuilding Iraq, to turn it into a 1st world nation instead of a third world country?

[Redleg]

If I'm correct, the rebuilding of Japan and Germany were a simple matter of supplying a bit of cash and man power, while rebuilding Iraq is almost as if we have to keep a garrison there to make sure it doesn't crash down on its self.

You would be incorrect. Germany and Japan were initially occupied to insure they remain defeated. It helped that they were on the brink of destruction at the end of the war, but troops were initially garrisoned as occupation forces.

The aim of rebuilding Iraq, to turn it into a 1st world nation instead of a third world country?

[/quote]

The aim should be to fix what we broke, we have an obligation toward that end. Regardless of how you feel about the conflict or the reasons behind it, the moral obligation remains.

[Caius]

The aim of rebuilding Iraq, to turn it into a 1st world nation instead of a third world country

It is obvious that a third world country, because it would be a threat for freedom.

[Ironside]

If I'm correct, the rebuilding of Japan and Germany were a simple matter of supplying a bit of cash and man power, while rebuilding Iraq is almost as if we have to keep a garrison there to make sure it doesn't crash down on its self.

I lack the total number, but the US occupied part of Germany (with a population of 2/3 of Iraq) had around 200k men 1946-1950 (increases after that due to the cold war and North Korean invasion) and that was still about 2/3 of the recommended number (low need and requests to bring the boys home were the reasons here).

Following those recommendations would give around 400k troops in Iraq.

America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ironside, that was also the beginnings of the Cold War - troops were necessary in Europe beyond the task of occupation.

[Redleg]

Ironside, that was also the beginnings of the Cold War - troops were necessary in Europe beyond the task of occupation.

That does not necessarily discount the fact that intially the troops were occupation forces. One can argue when the occupation turned into defense because of the Cold War. I normally go with the position that the American Forces occupied Germany until the middle of 1946, somewhere around June-August of 1946 I believe the joy of the war being over began to be outweighed by the percieved threat of the Soviet Union. If I remember my history right the Cold War is generally given a start year of 1946.

Now one could argue given the nature of the British and Russian zones that Germany was occupied for a bit longer then 1946.

[Ironside]

Ironside, that was also the beginnings of the Cold War - troops were necessary in Europe beyond the task of occupation.

But that is only relevant after 1950 (well the US started to push for it 1949), the calculations and troop numbers did not take that into serious consideration before that. And as expected that number rised considerbly after that.

Officially Western Germany (and Eastern for that matter) didn't exist until 1949 and was occupied until 1955. The Cold War messes up the troop number left after the occupation officially ended though.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Was public order a severe problem in Germany immediately after the war? It certainly could not have been as bad as post-invasion Iraq.

[Ironside]

Was public order a severe problem in Germany immediately after the war? It certainly could not have been as bad as post-invasion Iraq.

IIRC the total occupation force at the end of the war was 1:6 aka 1 soldier per 6 civilians (not certain, I've probably seen it in a book somewhere). Of course that number decreased rapidly during the first year.
The American forces were 1,6 millions.

If you got problems with public order from a country suffering from massive war fatigue with those numbers, then you really need to ask yourself what your troops are doing.

And that goes into one important aspect of occupation and that is to keep enough troops to prevent problems to show up in the first place.

One problematic aspect with Iraq and Germany is that in Iraq there's been failures on several aspects that were successful in Germany, which prevents problems from the start. To put it in MTWII terms, if you got severe public disorder in a ocupied city garnisioned by 100 men, while that city that got exterminated (MTW is a bit lacking the how to run an occupation aspects so this is the closest in MTWII terms I guess) and is garnisioned by 2000 men, can you fully compare civil disorder?

Some predicted problems that Iraq has been worse compared to Germany though:
Secterian violence
Less war fatigue
Less cultural difference

Germany was on the other hand worse in:
Sheer destruction
More refugees
Getting defeated and occupied instead of ~liberated= your troops are less popular.

Major screwups in Iraq that might not by itself be problematic enough, but combined:
Too few boots on the ground
Corrupted rebuilding
Destruction of bureacracy (de-Baathification taken too far, too quickly)
Higher up priority screwups (lack of maintaining civil order early on, Abu Ghraib, and more)

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Wouldn't the top 10 players of RTS games simply have fast reaction time and an excellent memory for hotkeys?

Press "h" to call a council of tribal leaders.

[KukriKhan]

But that is only relevant after 1950 (well the US started to push for it 1949), the calculations and troop numbers did not take that into serious consideration before that. And as expected that number rised considerbly after that.

Officially Western Germany (and Eastern for that matter) didn't exist until 1949 and was occupied until 1955. The Cold War messes up the troop number left after the occupation officially ended though.

The US Army agrees with you about the end of "Occupation" being May 1955. See wiki article re: Army of Occupation Medal. Berlin city itself garnered the Occupation Medal until October, 1990.

So, I think we can glean from that, that 'occupation to insure public order and prevent resurgence of internal military threats' lasted from May '46 to May '55. Then, 'occupation to prevent invasion from outside forces', gradually turning into 'partnership with local defense forces to prevent invasion from outside forces', spanned the period 1955 through 1990.

If we posit that the US experience in Germany (with its 44 years of varying levels of 'occupation/partnership') sets a precedent, it bodes poorly for any plans to quickly depart Iraq or Afghanistan.

That makes me sad.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That makes me sad.

Why? The USA is still in Germany, it's not doing any harm.