Unit Conscription : Corsica and Sardinia

[Zarax]

Horses from 1400BC would have been suitable for chariotry (which would point at the shardana theory) warfare rather than proper heavy cavalry.

[dedalonur9]

this is an other detail of the askos as you can see she is a armed soldier of shield and helmet. end VIII beginning VII century a.C, the Sardinian vase askos that is in bronze is more ancient...
the statues bronze are of IX century a.c.



because of the dates of these objects, and the dates of Lilliu,

as we can exclude that not there was heavy cavalry in Sardinia?

it was enough that a group of Nuragic noble mounted here to horse and that you had a square of heavy cavalry. ..........that he was heavy or light........ only depended from the light fact that to use it was the noble ones or infantrymans........

perhaps it is for my insufficient English, but I have not understood with which tests asserts that it must be excluded the... heavy cavalry use.

regarding the chariots….if you read to Drews (the end of the bronze age ) you will be able to see that the chariots after the 1200 A.c forgiveness their tactical function,

http://books.google.it/books?id=bFpK...um=1&ct=result

when, they appear of the infantryman armed of sword, round shield and javelin.

a group of these soldiers calls runners, was the shardana, than Drews it identifies with the Sardinians....

therefore in order to conclude, we know at least that they did not use the chariots, after the 1200 A.c, (with some exception like the british Essedi)

but that at least from VIII a.c (Askos).......... soldiers used the horse….

[Zarax]

How so there is no mention about cavalry from Sardinia during the punic wars then?
Even in articles regarding the mercenary wars not once sardinian horsemen are mentioned and that's pretty much the peak of nuragic power during the EB timeframe.

[dedalonur9]

it is true is not spoken about Sardinian knights. but I have not never felt to speak about archers or Sardinian infantryman, or other that I know.

the punic and roman sources do not describe no battle against sardinian army. How much we can say we depend from the archaeological finds ones, and logic......

in an other forum he has been saying that a "rings bridle" horse they have been recovered near Cagliari.

these objects are dated 1000 A.c. are trying confirmation. The person who has said this, was sure. but has not brought back the source.

this is the bronzet statuet about which I had spoken to you...


some have quite said that the animal of this statue is mouflon or a dog. you it seems logical?

who succeeds to be in feet to a dog or muflon?

the logic ................beautiful thing...

nevertheless it would be enough to read of the good books, as you say, for knowing that Erodoto, describes this type of stunts.....

but made with the horses, not with dogs or mouflon.....

[Zarax]

If we were talking about 800-1200BC then I would agree with you.
The problem is that here we're talking about 300BC.
Is any of the material that you have dated after 500BC (date of the last known major battles between Nuragics and Carthage)?
If yes then it's relevant to EB time period (given nuragic conservative attitude towards fighting style), otherwise it's never going to be accepted.

[dedalonur9]

"The problem is that here we're talking about 300BC.
Is any of the material that you have dated after 500BC (date of the last known major battles between Nuragics and Carthage)?"

dear Zarax...... we have a a lot of problems....
you have reason and we speak about the period of eb.

1) it is not sure of the date of that battle. if you want I send to you a small pdf of the university of Cagliari in which it is put in doubt existence of the treaty (500 A.c.) between Rome and Cartagine of A.c., and changes the dates of the battles.....

2) we know that after the rebellion of the Punic mercenary ther's not foreigner troops in Sardinia.

Ampsicora in fact had to ask Cartagine to send soldiers in Sardinia, than but never they arrived.
if not mistake, a storm prevented that the punic, disembarked at Tharros,

Tharros is the sardinian city that offer greater resistance at the Roman empire. in my opinion tharros it would have to appear in Eb...

Tharros was governed from a Sardinian nobleman : Ampsicora and its son: Josto....
since the Punic did not arrive never more in Sardinia he churches aid to the other Sardinian tribes Ilienses, Balares, Gallinenses.

the roman sources say that they were defeats in 2 different battles. After the defeat arms and body were burnt...

after the battles of Ampsicora and josto there were other battles and rebellions of city..

as we know were other battles and others generals obtained them the triumph..........we know that the triumphs obtained when a general killed a sure number of enemies....

after every defeat knows that the sardinians retreat in mountains.
from those places they stretched ambushes to the Roman and organized the Bardana

for bardana a military shipment made " hit and escape"
we know that above all the gallinenses organized bardana some to them for their position

it must notice that the bardana, for its nature cannot that to be made using the horse, because otherwise the knights roman would have caught up the Sardinian infantryrman.

probably the Sardinians took apart from horse, fought on foot before with the bow and then onrush in order then to withdraw itself to horse. me it seems the only logical way to act.

did not creed use the roman weapons............... therefore if they made them...

therefore the historical situation represent in Sardinia of the E.B would have to be this:

1) at least 2 cities (Tharros and Calaris) .........not one
2) both the cities controlled mining resources of silver and copper
3) Cagliari controlled also the plain of Campidano plain and agricultural resources
4) when the Roman arrived the punic go away of the sardinian, therefore these cities must be free cities (Eleutheroi)
5) in my opinion the cities can contain a small arms of punic type, but also Nuragian warrior and noble.
6) now and then an army of this type would have to appear in Sardinia till the 10 D.c.

thus E.B would give an historical image of the Sardinia..................

[Ludens]

1) at least 2 cities (Tharros and Calaris) .........not one
2) both the cities controlled mining resources of silver and copper
3) Cagliari controlled also the plain of Campidano plain and agricultural resources
4) when the Roman arrived the punic go away of the sardinian, therefore these cities must be free cities (Eleutheroi)
5) in my opinion the cities can contain a small arms of punic type, but also Nuragian warrior and noble.
6) now and then an army of this type would have to appear in Sardinia till the 10 D.c.

thus E.B would give an historical image of the Sardinia..................

I can't discuss the historical evidence, but the first is definitely not going to happen. The modification is already at the city limit. It's not historical that capture of a single town is enough to control Sardinia, I agree, but same applies already to Caledonia, Scandinavia, and you only need to conquer two towns to capture the entire Pelloponesos. 100% accuracy is impossible on the R:TW engine (or any other engine, I imagine).

[Zarax]

"The problem is that here we're talking about 300BC.
Is any of the material that you have dated after 500BC (date of the last known major battles between Nuragics and Carthage)?"

dear Zarax...... we have a a lot of problems....
you have reason and we speak about the period of eb.

1) it is not sure of the date of that battle. if you want I send to you a small pdf of the university of Cagliari in which it is put in doubt existence of the treaty (500 A.c.) between Rome and Cartagine of A.c., and changes the dates of the battles.....

I'm talking about the battle that happened around 550BC in southern Sardinia (villanova?), which was the last big one between punics and nuragics.

2) we know that after the rebellion of the Punic mercenary ther's not foreigner troops in Sardinia.

There was a brief period of time in which Sardinia was nuragic as they kicked out the mercenaries who raided the punic settlements on the island.

Ampsicora in fact had to ask Cartagine to send soldiers in Sardinia, than but never they arrived.
if not mistake, a storm prevented that the punic, disembarked at Tharros,

The carthaginians sent an army under Mago (IIRC it was the one that was supposed to reinforce Hannibal) and joined with the Nuragic forces under Josto. What happened is that Josto attacked too early before Ampsicora could rally the support of the Balares and other interior tribes.

Tharros is the sardinian city that offer greater resistance at the Roman empire. in my opinion tharros it would have to appear in Eb...
Tharros was governed from a Sardinian nobleman : Ampsicora and its son: Josto....
since the Punic did not arrive never more in Sardinia he churches aid to the other Sardinian tribes Ilienses, Balares, Gallinenses.
the roman sources say that they were defeats in 2 different battles. After the defeat arms and body were burnt...
after the battles of Ampsicora and josto there were other battles and rebellions of city..
as we know were other battles and others generals obtained them the triumph..........we know that the triumphs obtained when a general killed a sure number of enemies....
after every defeat knows that the sardinians retreat in mountains.
from those places they stretched ambushes to the Roman and organized the Bardana
for bardana a military shipment made " hit and escape"
we know that above all the gallinenses organized bardana some to them for their position
it must notice that the bardana, for its nature cannot that to be made using the horse, because otherwise the knights roman would have caught up the Sardinian infantryrman.
probably the Sardinians took apart from horse, fought on foot before with the bow and then onrush in order then to withdraw itself to horse. me it seems the only logical way to act.
did not creed use the roman weapons............... therefore if they made them...
therefore the historical situation represent in Sardinia of the E.B would have to be this:

1) at least 2 cities (Tharros and Calaris) .........not one
2) both the cities controlled mining resources of silver and copper
3) Cagliari controlled also the plain of Campidano plain and agricultural resources
4) when the Roman arrived the punic go away of the sardinian, therefore these cities must be free cities (Eleutheroi)
5) in my opinion the cities can contain a small arms of punic type, but also Nuragian warrior and noble.
6) now and then an army of this type would have to appear in Sardinia till the 10 D.c.

thus E.B would give an historical image of the Sardinia..................

If anything I hope that EB2 will move to the historical situation in which Nora was the administrative capital while Karali was the main commercial port.
In the unlikely case of a second settlement I'd rather have one in barbagia, maybe Tiscali or Nukor would have been good?

Other than that, Sardinia should be set to be quite rebellious with one or two eleutheroi armies around to represent the "Sardi Peliti" tribes which were fiercely independent until the early empire.

[Che Roriniho]

I really quite like the Sardinian Infantry. Like the Archer-Spearmen of the west. I like that other model though, from Roma Serrectum. Judging by those statuets, it looks more like the Historical one as well.

[dedalonur9]

che roriniho

n Sardinia the majority of single statue has been found had bow and sword.
the quiver and sheath, was wear back (of a person) ;.....quiver and sheath were joined to the frontal armor...
for this reason I have asked the permission of do again these warrior. it's useless to apply armors of others. they are too much particular.

Zarax
according to the official history the battle in which the 80.ooo Carthaginian of Malko were defeats held to Monte Sirai.I but have many doubts on the date of this battle.

certainly the terrestrial battle in Sardinia, happened after the battle of Alalia, in which Phocaea and Tartessus came defeats from Etruscan and Punic.

after this battle Phocean go leave from Alalia and other colony. Etruscan and Punic split the west Mediterranean..... result of the treaty of Pyrgi.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamine_di_Pyrgi

the date of this treaty coincides with that one of Polybius of the 509 A.c......
according to Polybius in this treaty prohibit the Roman of sail and dock in Sardinia

but there is a problem.... in the 509 A.c the Roman did not have a ship...

when one referred to the Roman referred to the Etruscan.... that governed Rome (Lucius Tarquinius Superbus)...

the treaty of the 500 A.c after the battle of Alalia destroyed Tartessus (Tarshish, in the bilble)

the Punic attacks in Iberia 2 phocean cities and then, they attack in Sardinia where the more ancient city was Nora, founded from Norax grandson of the first king of Tartessus Geryon (Geryones, Geyron)

in other word for knowing what we succeeded to the Sardinia in those years we would have to know what we happened to Tartessus since Nora had something to that to make with it.....

however with you, I agree that , E.B would have to replace Kalaris with Nora... bye