Karadzic arrested

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The whole of the Balkans just makes me think of and endless series of MTW:

"Faction Re-emergence"

messages. It's the ultimate in whack-a-mole....

[HoreTore]

They didn't want to massacre, they massacred. Subtle, yet important distinction.

So... It is okay for serb loonies to massacre innocent bosnians because there are bosnian loonies who massacred innocent serbs...?

Hey, here's an idea, why not shoot those who massacre people, instead of shooting innocent people!

[Brenus]

"why not shoot those who massacre people, instead of shooting innocent people!" Well, it is what they thought they were doing... That is the problem when you take justice in your own hands and made mistake...

By the way, it was impossible in Bosnia to make a difference between civilian and fighters. Every male had to do 2 weeks on the front and 2 weeks at home... It was a CIVIL war, and not a country (Serbia) invading others countries (bosnia and Croatia)... It was far more complexe...

[HoreTore]

Well, it is what they thought they were doing...

Not even close to acceptable.

By the way, it was impossible in Bosnia to make a difference between civilian and fighters. Every male had to do 2 weeks on the front and 2 weeks at home...

So.... In WW2, it would've been OK for the allies to shoot german children, since they could be enlisted in the Hitlerjugend...?

[Sarmatian]

So... It is okay for serb loonies to massacre innocent bosnians because there are bosnian loonies who massacred innocent serbs...?

Please HoreTore, don't advocate shooting of innocent Bosniaks.

Vast majority of those killed in Srebrenica were far from innocent. That doesn't make it any less wrong, mind you, they should have been treated as POW's.

One very important aspect of the war, and one of the main reasons for so many "civilian" casualties is that fighting were for the most part done by paramilitary groups or armed forces that evolved from paramilitary groups. JNA (Yugoslav People's Army) was the only legal armed force in Yugoslavia. JNA tried to maintain its distance and only reacted defensively when it was directly attacked. Those paramilitary groups consisted in part of true patriots, but mostly of nationalists and criminals who saw the potential to get rich quickly. This was especially true in Serbia and in Bosnia. So, fighting was often done by groups of people without uniforms, clear chain of command or military structure. So in the end, you could just take a gun from a corpse of a killed combatant and voila, you've got a civilian casualty, so useful for propaganda. It was very difficult to discern soldier from a civilian. A lot of civilian casualties were actually combatants.

You're idea about shooting those responsible instead of civilians is great. But, unfortunately, some of them are dead and some of them are either current or ex presidents, foreign ministers, generals, special envoys of Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, US, NATO, Germany, UK, France etc... and it is very hard to get those people to appear at a court. Actually, it could be done for those from Serbia, Croatian and Bosnia for the most part, but it is nearly impossible to get to others from the list...

[Tribesman]

A lot of civilian casualties were actually combatants.

What was that village outside Srebrenica where 3/4 of the civilian casualties from the place were really soldiers and on top of that 3 times that amount who were claimed to have been casualties in that village were soldiers whose bodies had been transported to the village from other locations ?
What was it again , 48 were killed there , 11 of them were civilians and 168 other soldiers bodies were bought there .
Gets confusing doesn't it .

[HoreTore]

A lot of civilian casualties were actually combatants.

That simply does not matter even a tiny bit. Karadzic is still a butcher. There's is no excuse for his actions, no justification. He is still the same butcher regardless of what else was going on. He knowingly and willingly accepted the killing of innocent people, and that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.

[Sarmatian]

What was that village outside Srebrenica where 3/4 of the civilian casualties from the place were really soldiers and on top of that 3 times that amount who were claimed to have been casualties in that village were soldiers whose bodies had been transported to the village from other locations ?
What was it again , 48 were killed there , 11 of them were civilians and 168 other soldiers bodies were bought there .
Gets confusing doesn't it .

It does, thanks for furthering my point.

That simply does not matter even a tiny bit. Karadzic is still a butcher. There's is no excuse for his actions, no justification. He is still the same butcher regardless of what else was going on. He knowingly and willingly accepted the killing of innocent people, and that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.

If he is a butcher than he doesn't have to be afraid. Hague usually let's butchers go free as we've seen in Oric and Haradinay cases...

I don't care about Karadzic, Mladic and similar scum. My only objection is that they should have been put on trial in Serbia or Republika Srpska...

[Tribesman]

It does, thanks for furthering my point.

Thats OK , and I am glad you didn't object that I used a Serbian example of duplicity as I am sure similar events can be found done by the Croats and Bosnians .

[HoreTore]

I don't care about Karadzic, Mladic and similar scum. My only objection is that they should have been put on trial in Serbia or Republika Srpska...

No. If they had committed crimes against serbs, then yes, it would perhaps have been OK. But they committed their worst crimes against bosnians, and as such they cannot be tried in serbia under any circumstances.

[Fragony]

If he is a butcher than he doesn't have to be afraid. Hague usually let's butchers go free as we've seen in Oric and Haradinay cases...

Oric.... Oric, nope never heard of him. Wonder why. Actually I don't it was completily ignored by our media. A non-innocent muslim, unacceptable.

[Tribesman]

Oric.... Oric, nope never heard of him. Wonder why. Actually I don't it was completily ignored by our media. A non-innocent muslim, unacceptable.

So it was completely ignored when he was found guilty then , and again completely ignored when he was aquitted because due to the Serbs bombing and shelling the villages too it was not possible to determine what unneccesary destruction was caused by his forces and how much had been caused by the Serbian forces . Did you miss the part where most of the evidence was shown to be entirely fabricated or when the depositions by dead people turned out to be not dead at all ?
So when you say your media completely ignored it do you mean that you just got another of your usual mental blanks when the word Muslim is mentioned .
I wonder how many different Dutch news sources relating to this trial can be found on the first page of a search on that internet thingy
Poor Frag blinded by his hatred again

[Sarmatian]

No. If they had committed crimes against serbs, then yes, it would perhaps have been OK. But they committed their worst crimes against bosnians, and as such they cannot be tried in serbia under any circumstances.

Republika Srpska would be perfectly acceptable. It's in Bosnia and they (Karadzic and Mladic in this case) were political/military leaders of RS. I would personally feel much better if criminals like Oric were convicted in Sarajevo, or Gotovina in Croatia than in Hague. Everyone should clean their own backyard and all that...

Thats OK , and I am glad you didn't object that I used a Serbian example of duplicity as I am sure similar events can be found done by the Croats and Bosnians.

I was never under impression that Serbs were good guys. But I object and will always object when crimes of one or two sides are ignored or marginalized and crimes of other sides are blown out of proportions. Simply Bosnian Muslim played the role of the victim perfectly, but they were no more victims than Bosnian Serbs or Bosnian Croats.

Just a small correction, I don't know if you're aware of it - when you say "Bosnians", it refers to all residents of Bosnia, whether they are Serbian, Muslim or Croatian. If you are talking only about Muslim population of Bosnia, Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslim is more appropriate.

[Fragony]

So it was completely ignored when he was found guilty then , and again completely ignored when he was aquitted because due to the Serbs bombing and shelling the villages too it was not possible to determine what unneccesary destruction was caused by his forces and how much had been caused by the Serbian forces . Did you miss the part where most of the evidence was shown to be entirely fabricated or when the depositions by dead people turned out to be not dead at all ?
So when you say your media completely ignored it do you mean that you just got another of your usual mental blanks when the word Muslim is mentioned .
I wonder how many different Dutch news sources relating to this trial can be found on the first page of a search on that internet thingy
Poor Frag blinded by his hatred again

A footnote here and there between advertisements, compared to the attention Karadic and uncle Milo it's safe to say that it is completily ignored. Nope Tribes, you are completily blinded by my 'hatred'. Ask a random dutchie who Karadic is and he will know, have been spammed silly with it after all, ask who Oric is, maybe one out of a few hundreds will have heard of him, and will probably be flabbergasted that it wasn't exactly a one-sided conflict. Uh-huh

[HoreTore]

Republika Srpska would be perfectly acceptable.

Not your call to make; you're not a victim. Sorry.

[Sarmatian]

Not your call to make; you're not a victim. Sorry.

Not mine, yours or any other person's here but that shouldn't stop us from discussing it. Anyway, do you really think somebody actually asked the victims where they want the criminals prosecuted? Do you really think someone took their opinion and wishes into consideration when they formed the tribunal?

That tribunal wasn't formed to bring criminals to justice and to give satisfaction to the victims but to justify the actions of the great powers.

Anyway, my opinion still stands - all criminals should be prosecuted by courts in their own countries. Only that would prove that all countries involved have indeed come to terms with their own part of the guilt. Some arbitrary body no one cares about either in Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia can't give neither satisfaction to the victims nor the proof that things have indeed changed...

[HoreTore]

Anyway, do you really think somebody actually asked the victims where they want the criminals prosecuted?

In the case of death, their relatives get to make that call.

Some arbitrary body no one cares about either in Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia can't give neither satisfaction to the victims nor the proof that things have indeed changed...

Really? Then why have I seen so many interviews with bosnians who are extremely relieved that Karadzic has been captured and will face justice...?

They do appear to have a rather different view of this than you do, and frankly, they're the ones who matter. And where was that protest rally against the capture of Karadzic, again? Was it in Sarajevo or Belgrade? I forgot, sorry...

[Sarmatian]

Really? Then why have I seen so many interviews with bosnians who are extremely relieved that Karadzic has been captured and will face justice...?

They do appear to have a rather different view of this than you do, and frankly, they're the ones who matter. And where was that protest rally against the capture of Karadzic, again? Was it in Sarajevo or Belgrade? I forgot, sorry...

Extremely relieved, you say. Are those the same Bosniaks who were dancing with joy when Oric was released? Who wore t-shirts with his pictures, celebrating him as a war hero? Sorry mate, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about moving on and coming to terms with these issues. For most of them, this is just another "proof" that they were the good guys and victims, while Serbs were the bad guys and butchers. That's not the kind of justice I'm advocating and I will never be able to agree with it. That's the kind of attitude the Hague reinforces...

Since you like to read interviews so much, try reading some that Bosniak politicians made. You'll see for what they want to use the arrest of Karadzic...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Anyway, my opinion still stands - all criminals should be prosecuted by courts in their own countries. Only that would prove that all countries involved have indeed come to terms with their own part of the guilt. Some arbitrary body no one cares about either in Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia can't give neither satisfaction to the victims nor the proof that things have indeed changed...

I broadly support this view. Judgement by peers is an important plank of justice being seen to be done, and the responsibility of ensuring a fair trial gives a good indication of how far a people has travelled in being able to face up to their past. With some safeguards, it is by far the preferable route.

Nonetheless, the International Court has an important legitimacy to ensure that criminals from countries that haven't - or won't - face up to their responsibilities, are able to be prosecuted. Because of the scrupulous care taken to ensure the appearance of fairness, these proceedings often appear over-long and chaotic, which leads to accusations such as no-one caring. The Court may not be perfect, but it is far preferable to letting the evil get away with their deeds in the knowledge they will never be brought to trial.

For example, at the time he was caught, Milosevic could not have been tried in a Serbian court because the country was still too raw. For Karadzic however, I believe that a trial in his own country would be the correct choice for all concerned. The time is right to move forward.

[Brenus]

“Not even close to acceptable”: Never said it was.

“ In WW2, it would've been OK for the allies to shoot german children, since they could be enlisted in the Hitlerjugend...?”: It is unacceptable to kill prisoners of war. But as far as I know, the “Baby Division”, the 12 SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend was one the most feared unit in Normandy, so the Allies killed the “children”.
Did you ever face one kid with a Kalashnikov? I did. And it is one of the worst things it can happen…

“So it was completely ignored when he was found guilty then , and again completely ignored when he was aquitted because due to the Serbs bombing and shelling the villages too it was not possible to determine what unnecessary destruction was caused by his forces and how much had been caused by the Serbian forces”: Oric killed civilians and the Court decided it couldn’t decide if it was necessary or not… By the way, that shows Srebrenica wasn’t “disarmed”…
His non-guilty verdict is definitely the proof that some war criminals are not giving same treatment…

“Did you miss the part where most of the evidence was shown to be entirely fabricated or when the depositions by dead people turned out to be not dead at all ?” Dead people giving depositions? Zombies?


“Not your call to make; you're not a victim. Sorry.” So, it not up to The Hague either. Sorry.

“Was it in Sarajevo or Belgrade?”: So when the General Gotovina is captured in some remote Spanish territory, Spain is part of the Croatian Ethnic Cleansing? Does it make sense?

“For example, at the time he was caught, Milosevic could not have been tried in a Serbian court because the country was still too raw”. Perhaps. However, I still think Milosevic should have been judge in Serbia.
His political agreement with Tudjman, playing with Serbian lives (and others, but I see it from a Serbian point of view) and allowing the ethnic cleansing from the Serbs from Krajina (in order to re-populate Kosovo), his withdrawal of all the Serbian Officer 3 days before the final Croatian Offensive (followed by NATO bombardment on Serbian Anti Aircraft Position combined with the complete inaction of the Bosnian Serbs Army when the Croatian Army took –in Bosnia- the key for Knin), the pillage and loot of the country by his relatives and friends, would have been enough.
Then to The Hague, for more charges…

Hoops, have to go, to be continued…

[Devastatin Dave]

Oh, he's not going to rot for too long, CA. He'll get the Saddam treatment.

At the Hague? Are you kidding? A lot of Euros will be spent for the rest of this guys life keeping him alive. They should just drop him off in any village in Albania, they'll know what to do with him...

[Brenus]

In Albania? The guy never put a foot in Albania... Croatia, well, he went in hollidays. The Bosniacs woud like to have a word with him, most probably...
Or you mean they will sell his parts/organs?

[Devastatin Dave]

Or you mean they will sell his parts/organs?

Bingo...