1.2 - further and farther, the Qin Dynasty??

[Jolt]

We don't know if the Chinese would have been able to do this like we don't know if, for instance, the Dacians would have been capable of consistently fielding armies to cross most of central and northern Europe and conquering and holding settlements in Scandinavia. Neither would they have been able to do this, nor would they most likely have been inclined to do so. But EB provides the player with the ability to do so. The simple fact is that whether Dacia and Scandinavia ever interacted directly, intended to do it, or were even historically able to do it, they interacted and affected one another indirectly and there is the possibility that they could have had direct contact.

That's the entire point of a game like EB, otherwise the game would be much more restrictive in forcing the player to follow a historical path. Looking at Macedonia in the mid 4th century, no one would have imagined that Macedonians would have been inclined, nor capable, of conquering to India and creating an Indo-Greek empire in the northwest of that subcontinent in what is historically the blink of an eye. All that would be necessary would be for some sort of circumstance within a game to create the inclination for one of the Warring States to head westward. EB is more about possibilities within the historical framework of the timeline than it is with strictly historical simulation.

Do not forget that you're example has very little in common with a China-West connection. Persia had already invaded Greece, and was only separated by the small Aegean Sea, and was a force with significant impact in Greece even after the defeat of their invasion. Whereas China and Bactria are separated by miles of steppe lands, surrounded by mountainous terrain. But then, by following your line of thought, providing...let's see, Great Zimbabwe united all the Bantu tribes in Africa, and headed Northwards, and embarked on a World Conquest reaching as far as Japan could be just as possible, considering they'd be inclined to such a task, despite existing little connection between Great Zimbabwe and the Mediterranian. What I am saying (And Foot explained it) is that nations who had little impact on the affairs of the current EB map are best left omitted.

@Jolt
...but you must admit that it was deathly effective, and to the eyes of a commoner it's a quick way to status and prestiege. The Han military later on largely adopted and expanded on the Qin system, and subsequently set the foundation of chinese military doctrine for years to come.

Imagine this, you are a soldier from one of the 6 states standing in a tight firing line. You draw your crossbow with your foot at signal's notice, load the bolt, and fire in upon command at the enemy firing line 300 yards away. Normally after a few trades one side will either lose nerve or a platoon commander gets fed up and orders his men to draw swords for an ill-fated charge. But no, the Qin men keeps on firing, despite the casualties they sustained. To make matters worse, a blocks of pikemen move forward upon your line and you have no way to reach them with your sword. Your line gets tied down. You hear a distant signal and the Qin men drop their crossbows, remove the Ji from the ground and come after you in a charge.

You are a reasonably well off land owner or artisian, your land or business is wealthy enough for you to provide your arms, and hire workers so you will have time off to drill. If you're dead, you cant keep that. The Qin, on the other hand, are conscripts. Most of them don't have much social status nor wealth, and pretty much all their gear are provided by the state. Their training's tough, dicipline harsh, but ONE thing drives their motivation: YOUR wealth, and your HEAD. For each (confirmed) kill elevates their status, each inch of land gained will one day be your to till, and each rank you attain increases your share of the booty.

You have something to protect, yet they have nothing to lose. Couple that with iron dicipline and harsh military training, they are a terror to behold.

Indeed. But providing you had all the training in the world, if your squad leader comitted one mistake and got himself killed, then you had 0 chances in theory of escaping alive, despite doing your best at fighting/trying to save your squad leader's life. But yes, it is a system which forces all the army to win, true, but if things don't go too well. Then massive desertions could ensure.

I have one question. Was the Han system very alike, or did they alter some principals behind the army organization?

[satalexton]

Han was nearly identical to that of Qin in fact, the only real difference really is that the source of motivation is no longer the threat of execution (they prefer the idea of 'court martial', seems more 'fair' when it's a bunch of your peers judging ya death huh?) and lobbing others' heads off to prove u got a kill. It worked mainly because the military is now under the hands of relatively more lenient regime (tho still using Qin constituitions and laws), a much larger territory, and a much larger population. The latter is particularly important because, despite every adult male are still technically considered as reserves, many people may never see military service in their life time. Thus the Han army is more professionalized and take up a smaller proportion of the total population.

Oh it also helps when ur no longer fighting a civil war, but 'defending' your self from the XiongNu, punishing 'rebellious' IndoGreeks and defending the Silk Route while making a fat load of cash in the process.

[MeinPanzer]

Do not forget that you're example has very little in common with a China-West connection. Persia had already invaded Greece, and was only separated by the small Aegean Sea, and was a force with significant impact in Greece even after the defeat of their invasion.

I don't understand why you're bringing up the connection between Persia and Greece in this context.

Whereas China and Bactria are separated by miles of steppe lands, surrounded by mountainous terrain.

If you wanted to go through the north, yes. But the route actually taken by Chinese troops was through the Tarim Basin, which remained the primary route for any travellers going from the west to China and vice versa for millennia. This route followed the great wall to the west, then continued westward until it hit the Tarim Basin (which is a desert; no steppe lands involved) and went either north or south, following the edge of the desert until they crossed mountains on the western side of the basin and crossed into the region around Bactria.

If you think my example has little in common with the China-West connection, here's a better one. The Sabaeans lived a huge distance away from the Mediterranean, had minimal contacts with the other EB factions (mainly with the Aithiopians, who are not represented in game, and to a limited extent in the east with some Iranian peoples). In order for them to reach another EB faction, they would have had to travel hundreds of miles either over the Red Sea or through desert and mountain to reach them. There was a brisk trade of exotic commodities through parts of Arabia, but the Sabaeans themselves almost don't appear on the radar of the ancient historians, and even when we do hear of contact with Arabians (Aelius Gallus' expedition being the primary mention), we only hear about a penetration of a fragment of the Arabian peninsula, not even getting close to the Sabaean homeland. They were barely expansionist, only fighting other neighbouring Arabian states. Yet the Sabaeans are included in EB.

[Jolt]

I don't understand why you're bringing up the connection between Persia and Greece in this context.

Because you gave Macedonia as an example of someone who wasn't expected to build an Empire, like China could, providing they cross over to the West. My point was that there were already great rivalries between those civilizations (Which motivated the original purpose of the war), while an easily surpassable obstacle (Sea/Strait). Both civilizations had already been in constant warfare and were greatly hostile to one another. Thus it becomes logical that either Macedonia or any other Greek City-State or a coalition of them could try to head East with a significant number of troops, or a Persian re-invasion of Greece, for that matter.
Putting it back into context, there was no such thing between Qin/Han and Bactria. There were no rivalries between the states, and they weren't exactly very aware of how each other even functioned; They had miles to cross before they reached one another, especially Qin, which never focused much in external expansion; Both had little encounters throughout their histories (The one related in this thread is the first one that I know of between Greeks and Chinese, even though someone said they weren't exactly Greeks but some sort of vassal/tributary state.), and that sporadic encounter happened merely because the Chinese envoy was killed. Otherwise, no expedition would have took place.
Therefore one example and other have little in common.

If you wanted to go through the north, yes. But the route actually taken by Chinese troops was through the Tarim Basin, which remained the primary route for any travellers going from the west to China and vice versa for millennia. This route followed the great wall to the west, then continued westward until it hit the Tarim Basin (which is a desert; no steppe lands involved) and went either north or south, following the edge of the desert until they crossed mountains on the western side of the basin and crossed into the region around Bactria.

If you think my example has little in common with the China-West connection, here's a better one. The Sabaeans lived a huge distance away from the Mediterranean, had minimal contacts with the other EB factions (mainly with the Aithiopians, who are not represented in game, and to a limited extent in the east with some Iranian peoples). In order for them to reach another EB faction, they would have had to travel hundreds of miles either over the Red Sea or through desert and mountain to reach them. There was a brisk trade of exotic commodities through parts of Arabia, but the Sabaeans themselves almost don't appear on the radar of the ancient historians, and even when we do hear of contact with Arabians (Aelius Gallus' expedition being the primary mention), we only hear about a penetration of a fragment of the Arabian peninsula, not even getting close to the Sabaean homeland. They were barely expansionist, only fighting other neighbouring Arabian states. Yet the Sabaeans are included in EB.

That is true, but the supposed wealth of the Sabeans prompted the expedition of Aelius Gallus, which shows that they weren't exactly isolated. And the distance they'd have to travel through the sea to reach, I'm not even talking of the Eythrean Ptolomaic possessions or Upper Egypt, but Necao's Channel, is still at the very least half of the distance of Han's Eastern-most borders to reach the Bactrians. And providing they knew in which seasons the wind was favourable to go Northwards (Which I'm sure they did know), it wouldn't be that difficult to reach Egypt from Arabia Felix.

Still, what you bring up is also true, since the Sabeans had little impact on the affairs of the rest of EB's factions.

and lobbing others' heads off to prove u got a kill.

Chinese Head Hunters! ^_^'

[Foot]

It is true that Saba played very little part in the affairs of the mediterranean, though there was certainly some. However we are, due to how the world works, stuck with a huge expanse of space in the shape of Arabia. Before Saba were added the rebel towns and armies of Arabia had no appropriate parent faction to belong to (this is important as it defines what names the rebel family leaders can use, what portraits, what it can recruit and so on). I can't remember exactly but I think that in the 0.7x group of releases Parthia was chosen as the parent faction in Arabia, which inevitably led to purple provinces all over the place (in india to as parthia was the parent faction there, and still is). So we have a large entirely complete peninsular in need of a parent faction, that housed important trading cities, and would stop the encroachment of parthian purple into this huge part of the map. For practical purposes Saba had a lot to offer.

This in no way is designed to express all the reasons behind Saba's inclusion, but it certainly helps explain the practical reason.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah, I remember how in 0.74 the Parthians would end up at war with the Ptolies over, say Yemen... When the Parthians themselves had been beaten naught but to dust by the Seleukids from day one. Oh, those were some really whacky wasteland days!