New factions?

**Son of Perun** · 08-08-2008, 22:58

Originally Posted by abou

What could Meroe do that a few rebel cities couldn't?

Same goes for Saba, Casse...such argument has no logic.

Originally Posted by abou

I don't mean to be a dick, but when I keep seeing the same factions mentioned again and again that have already been shot down it gets old. At least Nabataia has some viability. Meroe has none. They are so below the military horizon it isn't even funny. It would be like when Poland sent a cavalry force against German tanks.

It would be interesting to hear why Nabataia has more viability than Meroe, afaik it was kingdom weaker to Kushite kingdom in all aspects whether it comes to population, military or wealth. I understand that some members of EB team might be a bit tired of this issue but that does not approve them to speak about Kushites like they were a bunch of dirty african savages. They were in fact more developed than some of the factions currently in EB. I agree that Meroe certainly won't be in EB2, but it is mostly due to engine restrictions and not their "viability".

Sorry to say that but Meroe is going to be mentioned again and again considering how uncertain the facts about Meroe are and the number of people who would like to play as such an exotic faction.

**Mithridates VI Eupator** · 08-08-2008, 23:45

*sigh*

There are loads of possible factions (bithynia, Odrysiai, cappadocia, mauretania, Aitolian leauge, Atropatene, Caucasian Iberia, whatever) that have recieved marginal, if any, attention in this thread. Meanwhile, Meroë, Muryans, Yuhezi, Caledonians and their likes are suggested over and over again, despite the fact that the EB-team explicitly has declared that they will not be included.

So, please: Make your suggestions (preferably motivated by facts), discuss their viability gameplay-wise/History-wise, make examples for their unit-roosters...
...but for the love of god, leave the Nubians to their destiny!!!

No offense, people, but its getting repetitive...

**Foot** · 08-09-2008, 00:45

This is a Faction suggestion thread. If you want to discuss Meroe I suggest you find somewhere else to do so.

No one on the EB team has suggested that they were african savages, but we've had enough of people bringing them up on these boards.

Foot

**Sir Edward** · 08-09-2008, 02:17

Originally Posted by Son of Perun

It would be interesting to hear why Nabataia has more viability than Meroe, afaik it was kingdom weaker to Kushite kingdom in all aspects whether it comes to population, military or wealth. I understand that some members of EB team might be a bit tired of this issue but that does not approve them to speak about Kushites like they were a bunch of dirty african savages. They were in fact more developed than some of the factions currently in EB. I agree that Meroe certainly won't be in EB2, but it is mostly due to engine restrictions and not their "viability".

Sorry to say that but Meroe is going to be mentioned again and again considering how uncertain the facts about Meroe are and the number of people who would like to play as such an exotic faction.

Okay so I personally am fed up with your whining and moaning, maybe the moderators will delete this post but I got to get it off my chest.
You wonder why Nabataia is being talked about and Meroe is not being considered? It's because TA let slip (red herring (?)) that there will be four factions in the culture that presently contains Carthage and Saba. Nabataia would fall into this grouping Meroe wouldn't even come close. While I personally wouldn't include either in my top 10 wish list there it is. Foot stated point blank in post #280 of this thread that due to culture restrictions Meroe could never be presented properly. Its not about military makeup or in game survival or the map lacking regions where they would historically likely to expand. What it come down to is if you want to see Meroe presented as having a ruling light skin family. Is that how you wish Meroe to be presented because with the culture limits that what you would end up with?

And as far as the large number of people you claim wanting to play this faction a search through this very thread can only find 15 people who are willing to voice this opinion of including in the 10 new factions slot Meroe/Kush/Axum/Nubia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And amongst those 15 almost half of those are from accounts, six in fact, that have posted less than 25 times in the forums. And while a couple of these may be legitimate accounts that deserve to have their thoughts heard, the vast majority appear to be puppet accounts or trolls & their real purpose should be questioned.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

There are in fact more posts in this thread ruling out the inclusion of Meroe than there are people who have posted wanting them. So I am really at a loss where you are coming from with "how uncertain the facts about Meroe are", they are very certain it isn't going to be included as a faction in EBII.

**Megas Methuselah** · 08-09-2008, 05:21

It's probably already been suggested, but Massalia would be sweet. Of course, this is most unlikely, as there probably isn't a lot of historical information regarding the city, and Western Europe is crowded enough as it is. I just thought I'd let the word "Massalia" hang in the air for a while...

EDIT: Massalia.

Massalia.

Maaa...saaaa....liaaa...

**Turnus** · 08-09-2008, 08:56

Originally Posted by Sir Edward

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And amongst those 16 almost half of those are from accounts, seven in fact, that have posted less than 25 times in the forums. And while a couple of these may be legitimate accounts that deserve to have their thoughts heard, the vast majority appear to be puppet accounts or trolls & their real purpose should be questioned.

Yeah you should probably remove my name from that list, seeing as I merely said that it's clear that there won't be a Nubian faction. And because I said that, it must be clear to you that I am actually a "puppet account" for someone who really doesn't want the Nubians to be included.

Next time please actually read people's posts. Merely because I don't have many posts on the .org doesn't mean I'm a puppet account or an ignoramus (I am actually a coder and scripter of Hegemonia: City States). Rather, it probably means that I spend more time on the TWC...

To stay on topic, one of the issues with city-states (such as Syracuse, Kyrene, Massalia etc.) is whether they would make for a fun/historical campaign. They never really expanded to create a large empire, but, (as the mod likes the idea of 'changing history') this isn't the biggest issue. It is rather that it is hard to imagine states so inwardly focused to carve out such empires, and this could make game experience much less enjoyable. I find that in many EB campaigns, when one's empire has become quite large, and their historical enemies have been defeated, the game becomes less enjoyable as it is by this point so far seperated from history that everything just seems meaningless. For example, in a Carthaginian campaign, once Spain and Rome have been conquered, you can't help but think: What now? With city-states and possibly other small factions, it would perhaps seem this way from the start, as these cities historically maintained their own borders without the need for RTW-style conquest. Would it be realistic/enjoyable to conquer the world with such factions?

Another major issue with this is the behaviour of the AI. Imagine if you were playing as the Romani, and, entering into Gaul, found it completely under the control of the 'Massalia' faction. Or if you started a Sweboz campaign hoping for a migration to Italy and a war against the Romans, but, on arriving there, found it under the dominion of the city-state Syracuse. I think the inclusion of such factions is not needed for either historical or gameplay reasons. Factions with historical victory conditions (e.g. Romani conquering the Mediterranean, Parthians conquering the Seleucid lands) or reasonable victory conditions (e.g. Gallic factions needing to have control of all Gallic lands, the Treveri needing both Gallic and Germanic lands) make for both more realistic and more enjoyable mods. Of course, seeing as we have quite a few slots to fill, it would perhaps be good to use one of them for such a faction (perhaps Massalia). Any thoughts?

**Son of Perun** · 08-09-2008, 09:53

Seems I have to quote myself:

I agree that Meroe certainly won't be in EB2

I didn't want to bring this stuff back but it really makes me pissed when someone writes things like Meroe is "bullshit" and "completely below the military horizon". I researched a bit on Meroe and from the limited knowledge I know that this simply isn't true. But yeah, Foot is right, it is no longer topic for this thread. I apologize for making the mess

So once more for those people who have some problems with reading:

I agree that Meroe certainly won't be in EB2

**Parkev** · 08-09-2008, 12:42

Originally Posted by Turnus

To stay on topic, one of the issues with city-states (such as Syracuse, Kyrene, Massalia etc.) is whether they would make for a fun/historical campaign. They never really expanded to create a large empire, but, (as the mod likes the idea of 'changing history') this isn't the biggest issue. It is rather that it is hard to imagine states so inwardly focused to carve out such empires, and this could make game experience much less enjoyable.

Can anyone else think of a rather notable power of this period that may or may not have begun as a city state (that may or may have been built on seven hills).

But seriously, I can see where you're coming from, it does make a lot of sense but I think its really function of how the game works. I don't we'd have a problem imagining Massila exerting influence on some smaller towns down the road, and opening some colonies along the coast, but there's no way to represent this is the game. Its either stay in your city, or march hundreds of kilometers and conquer a vast tract of land occupied by numerous Gallic tribe. There isn't much of a middle step.

Going on a bit of tangent, I think you can apply this to any faction (Hayastan, Saba, Casse) that start with only one city. You just go conquer that first city, even if you don't have the same kind of reasoned excuse (I guess something along the lines of "He called your sister fat and to rub it in he stole all of your goats; now, to reclaim your honour you must go subjugate his people") that is developed as role-playing builds up later in the game.