Bithynia or Syracuse??

**Hax** · 08-09-2008, 23:32

Wasn't..Bithynia eastern?

**MeinPanzer** · 08-10-2008, 00:09

Originally Posted by Hax

Wasn't..Bithynia eastern?

What do you mean, exactly? If you mean culturally, then you'd have to define what you mean by "eastern," but the Bithynians were basically a Thracian group that settled in northwest Anatolia probably in the Bronze Age. Being right across the Hellespont, they had close contact with Greeks but were known for being quite barbaric up until the late fifth century, when the different tribes began to coagulate into one kingdom under Doedalsos. However, it wasn't until Zipoetes came to the throne in 297 BC that the Bithynian kings began to pursue a program of Hellenization, and this reached its apogee under Nikomedes I in the 280s-260s BC. They established Greek cities, major trading contacts, and began to become benefactors of Greek poleis. Bithynia was very much a Hellenized kingdom, right down to the individual level, where many people gave their children Greek names.

**keravnos** · 08-10-2008, 00:39

Thanks for that clarification, MP, I was under the impression that the Hellenization of Bithynia occured at early CE. In your debt.

**satalexton** · 08-10-2008, 00:55

If you do Syracuse, u'll have a tough start. The Carthies will literally come for your head, shipping troops from all over. Group your FMs together as an army of it's own and go straight for the carthies.
Push them off Sicily asap, and build up your 3 cities there. Take the other 2 islands as soon as you can afford lemboi-ships. DO NOT move onto Rhegion until you can support a decent strength army, the moment you take Rhegion, the Romans will get pissed off at you.

Preferably, take Taras AFTER the romans have pushed the Epirotes out, you're going to fight the romans anyways, might as well tie their forces down in a city.

Btw, use Syrakousai hoplitai as your main line, 4 men deep. Those guys are wonderful line-holders. Use peltasts along with your general to flank and surround.

**MeinPanzer** · 08-10-2008, 01:50

Originally Posted by keravnos

Thanks for that clarification, MP, I was under the impression that the Hellenization of Bithynia occured at early CE. In your debt.

Glad I could help. In fact, the aristocracy was Hellenized enough that at least two stelae from the 2nd c. BC have been found with long epigraphs in good Homeric Greek.

I've also forgotten something: there is only one episode which illustrates any kind of Thracian mercenaries serving in the Bithynian army, and that was in 149 BC when Prousias II, under siege by Attalos II, received a bodyguard of 500 Thracians from his Thracian relative Diegylis. However, this was obviously quite an exceptional circumstance, and so does not really indicate any regular use of Thracians in the Bithynian army. Nonetheless, Thracian mercenaries would not be out of place in the Bithynian ranks.

**keravnos** · 08-10-2008, 08:52

Since we have started this conversation, how would you perceive the Syracusan military MeinPanzer?
Especially so, as "Basileion Syrakoson", meaning the time of Hiero II and Hieronymos. The 5th republic period that succeeded them was too short to make a difference and ended under the Romani gladius.

Personally I see them as having a "hetairoi" like cav. as depicted in Hiero's coins, other cav. levy thureophoroi, thorakitai deffinitely, celtic and Iberian mercs, deffinitely Sikanoi, Sikouloi in the ranks. Not Elymioi as they would probably side with the Carthagenians.

**Hax** · 08-10-2008, 11:20

Since we have started this conversation, how would you perceive the Syracusan military MeinPanzer?
Especially so, as "Basileion Syrakoson", meaning the time of Hiero II and Hieronymos. The 5th republic period that succeeded them was too short to make a difference and ended under the Romani gladius.

Weren't the Syrakousans also famed for their marines and naval power?

**MeinPanzer** · 08-10-2008, 19:34

Originally Posted by keravnos

Since we have started this conversation, how would you perceive the Syracusan military MeinPanzer?
Especially so, as "Basileion Syrakoson", meaning the time of Hiero II and Hieronymos. The 5th republic period that succeeded them was too short to make a difference and ended under the Romani gladius.

Personally I see them as having a "hetairoi" like cav. as depicted in Hiero's coins, other cav. levy thureophoroi, thorakitai deffinitely, celtic and Iberian mercs, deffinitely Sikanoi, Sikouloi in the ranks. Not Elymioi as they would probably side with the Carthagenians.

I unfortunately am not all that knowledgeable about Syracuse, nor do I know all that much about the militaries of the west in general. However, I am familiar with a few Syracusan stelae that depict soldiers. A few depict cavalrymen, but unlike those on the coins of Hiero II, the cavalrymen are armed in the usual Hellenistic manner with large round shields (some seem to be like the 'popanum' type used by the Romans, with a central boss). The only depictions of infantry that I know of are, IIRC, simply hoplites - armed with hoplite shield, cuirass, and sword.