The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

[Privateerkev]

I never played the previous version of Midgard, and as such I have little idea how good my 'holmgang stats are in comparision to everyone else. Something to consider however...

Here is where I get my information:

end game post

write up (refresh if the spoiler won't open)

Holmgang

Now, I fully expect that Sigurd would have changed some things but it might give us an idea of what is going on.

[LittleGrizzly]

so basically the Gods have the highest fighting ability then the jotun and lastly townies ?

From the write up ordaniry townies did seem to luckily overcome stronger opponents, but they will usually die.. could this be another intresting way to test suspects, if they win a challenge then they where either lucky or had a higher fighting ability indicating a special role...

helped explain things a bit for me, thanks kev..

[pevergreen]

The write up can reveal a lot, or nothing at all.

I miss the claim of Loki, I wonder if the Gods are actually included in this game.

[Andres]

I wouldn't draw too much conclusions from those write-ups. In Midgard I, townies didn't go to Walhalla and because of that, some townies were considered to be guilty while they weren't

It's also a general rule in mafia: don't read too much in the kill and lynch descriptions.

[Sigurd]

The challenges are:

1. GeneralHankerchief vs. Warmaster Horus
2. woad&fangs vs. Husar
3. makaikhaan vs. Kukrikhaan
4. Caius vs. Andres
5. Eliit Tuhkur vs. Privateerkev
6. pevergreen vs. Kukrikhaan

One will be picked by the roll of a die and entered into the combat tool.
The results will be posted with the night results of round 2.

[Sigurd]

Remember people that it is night time.

Those of you who need to send in your nightly activities must do so before the deadline later today.
It is 20:00 GMT.

I have as yet not received any.

[Sarathos]

So just to get this straight, you can actually die from a Holmgang challange, the higher the score the better and you can challange anyone.

What exactly does it do? (Meaning does it reveal any info or items or anything)

[pevergreen]

The loser of Holmgang will die, the write-up hints at the peoples scores, but can be misleading. The Jotun last game could pose as weak townies in Holmgang.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Thanks to PK and Pever for clearing that up.

[pevergreen]

the higher the score the better and you can challange anyone.

Forgot to address those:

Yes, last game the maximum score was 10, with base values of 9. Winning a Holmgang gave a once off improvement of one to your base score. There is a system that Sigurd has created, so just because you have a higher score does not mean you will win for sure.

And yes, you can challange any living player. 6 Challanges are accepted, but only one is conducted, chosen at random by the host. You can't retract a Challange either, so do not make them lightly!

[Craterus]

So just to get this straight, you can actually die from a Holmgang challange, the higher the score the better and you can challange anyone.

What exactly does it do? (Meaning does it reveal any info or items or anything)

As I understand it, a Holmgang is a duel to the death and one participant is very likely to die. Although I think I read somewhere that there could be a tie and both would survive?

Anyway, I agree with other posters that they're not to be taken lightly but, in the early rounds when there are no obvious suspects, I don't see the problem with having some 'random' challenges. It'll get us all up to speed with what's going on and might even let us know how much we can read into the write-ups.

Silver lining.

[Husar]

In the last game I was Odin and had a Holmgang stat of 8, I think the Jotun king had the same from the start, those were the highest base scores. Also if Idunna would give someone an apple for protection, the person would get a temporary buff to their holmgang stat by +1 for the following night, IIRC.

[KukriKhan]

Forgot to address those:

Yes, last game the maximum score was 10, with base values of 9. Winning a Holmgang gave a once off improvement of one to your base score. There is a system that Sigurd has created, so just because you have a higher score does not mean you will win for sure.

And yes, you can challange any living player. 6 Challanges are accepted, but only one is conducted, chosen at random by the host. You can't retract a Challange either, so do not make them lightly!

Yeah. Like:

My holmgang score is under half of what I claimed last time, so KK should beat me soundly, I am challanging him as I dont like how he is voting.

after one vote. At least you spelt the name right (1 "a", not 2).

[TinCow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there may also be ulterior motives for the numerous Holmgangs. The entire reason that we are gathered here is to settle a dispute between two factions:

The Kings and Jarls of the Norse world with their retinue are gathered at Alþing to settle a dispute between King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark and Haakon Jarl of Norway. Harald hired an army from Jomsborg to crush Haakon, but the mighty Joms were beaten. The captain of Jomsborg is also at this þing, wanting to regain any lost stature with the Norse Kings.

The way this reads to me, King Harald Bluetooth might well have a secondary victory condition of killing Haakon Jarl, and vice versa. The Captain of Jomsborg might also have a similar motive. This is something to keep in mind when looking at who challenges who, and how they vote for lynching.

[Husar]

The way this reads to me, King Harald Bluetooth might well have a secondary victory condition of killing Haakon Jarl, and vice versa. The Captain of Jomsborg might also have a similar motive. This is something to keep in mind when looking at who challenges who, and how they vote for lynching.

That is what I thought (and then forgot again) when I got challenged, woad seems very eager for some reason and I don't know what reason that could be.

[Ferret]

To make it clear then I serve Harald Bluetooth.

[Craterus]

I was talking to Sigurd in the chat and he said not to think about the factions too much, both sides represent the town and it's mainly for write-up purposes.

So I don't think there's any extra objectives for either side.

[Quintus.JC]

I'm suppose to serve the king of Sweden, but isn't the conflict meant to be between Denmark and Norway.

[Privateerkev]

Now that there are Jotun present, it is them vesus the rest of us.

[naut]

WIFOMS!! Oh no!

[Privateerkev]

The way this reads to me, King Harald Bluetooth might well have a secondary victory condition of killing Haakon Jarl, and vice versa. The Captain of Jomsborg might also have a similar motive. This is something to keep in mind when looking at who challenges who, and how they vote for lynching.

I found this in round 2 of Midgard 1's writeup:

The discussion this round went along the lines of clan affiliation or no affiliation.
I intentionally left the “townies” in the no affiliation category; only Kings, Champions and War Vets belonged to a faction. This was one of the twists I put in the game. The factions were just for narrating purposes and had no meaning in the game as such. As I hoped some would accuse the none-affiliated of being Jotun as they believed all humans belonged to a faction.

Now this might have changed this game but my hunch is that it is simply "town" versus "Jotun." The factions are probably for flavor and nothing more. I would caution us against fanning any "inter-faction" flames. Infighting among the town will help the Jotun. I've been reading through Midgard 1's thread (I'm on page 19) and the town's infighting really hurt them early in the game. It kept them from uniting. In that game, the Jotun eventually won.

[Tratorix]

Geez, I miss the first days vote, and you guys manage to lynch the all-father god?

[Privateerkev]

Geez, I miss the first days vote, and you guys manage to lynch the all-father god?

I suspect you are Jotun...

You were missing on Day 1:

Did not vote : 2 (Motep, Tratorix)

There was only one kill on Night 1 and in Midgard 1 there was 2 kill attempts a night.

You have a 12 day hole in your posting.

And Sigurd said this earlier today:

Remember people that it is night time.

Those of you who need to send in your nightly activities must do so before the deadline later today.
It is 20:00 GMT.

I have as yet not received any.

So, I submit that Tratorix is Jotun and has just now received his PM telling him so. He missed his kill on N1 which caused the Jotun to miss a kill last night.

The Jotun most likely have at least 1 absentee member. I believe it is Tratorix. While lurking is normal for mafioso, it seems they are actually failing to get night PM's submitted.

Tomorrow we should lynch Tratorix.

[TinCow]

Now this might have changed this game but my hunch is that it is simply "town" versus "Jotun." The factions are probably for flavor and nothing more. I would caution us against fanning any "inter-faction" flames. Infighting among the town will help the Jotun. I've been reading through Midgard 1's thread (I'm on page 19) and the town's infighting really hurt them early in the game. It kept them from uniting. In that game, the Jotun eventually won.

This begs the question of why anyone would engage in Holmgang in the first place. If attacking a Jotun will likely result in death for the townie due to the Jotun being stronger, and it will not result in the Jotun being IDed (as noted earlier), then there is no legitimate reason for a townie to challenge anyone. Gods might well be different, since they are likely strong enough to defeat a Jotun in a Holmgang. There's also the question of whether there is an advantage for the Jotun themselves to challenge. Can they both challenge a Holmgang AND do night kills? If so, then they could possibly kill an extra person every night if they were lucky. If not, it might be a way of masking their kills as something more 'innocent.'

So, this leaves three plausible reasons for people to challenge for a Holmgang:
1) Townies who are bored or just roleplaying.
2) Gods who are essentially acting like vigilantes.
3) Jotun who are trying to get extra kills or disguise their hits.

This then turns into a Catch-22. We want to discourage #1, since it doesn't really help the town. However, if no one does #1, then anyone who does #2 will instantly become obvious to the Jotun. Since we do want to encourage #2 (when done accurately), that means that #1 is necessary to cover up #2. However, then #1 results in townie deaths, which we want to discourage...

I think it comes down to a balancing act. Will the town's losses due to #1 outweigh the possible advantage of killing a Jotun with #2? My personal opinion is no, simply because the odds of #2 actually resulting in a Jotun death are pretty slim. Without investigation results, such a hit is just random and likely to do more harm than good. With investigation results, a lynch could easily be obtained, making #2 unnecessary.

So, as I see it the only people who have a reason to be challenging are the Jotun, and everyone else who does it is just hurting the town.

[GeneralHankerchief]

IIRC, those who survived a Holmgang were incapacitated for a round last time.

[Privateerkev]

I haven't gone through the whole thread of Midgard 1 but it does seem that Sigurd lets some hints out in Holmgang writeups. So, there is a chance that fighting a Jotun will help even if the townie loses. Enough information might leak out to throw a spotlight on the Jotun and then get him lynched. Now, does the possible reward outweigh the risk? It doesn't seem so. Lynching is much more of a sure thing if we have the right target. Where Holmgang has the chance that you will lose, no matter how powerful you are.

And I think Jotun can fight in Holmgang and then kill the same night. I'll need to read more of the old thread to be sure though. There is a lot to go through... (54 pages!)

*edit*
Those who survived Holmgang couldn't fight in the next Holmgang. But I don't know if it prevented them from doing night actions. I'll keep reading...

[Privateerkev]

Sorry for the double-post but this is a different topic.

Motep, the other person who didn't vote in Day 1 might be Jotun as well.

He hasn't been on the board since the game started.

The Jotun had 1 kill last night. I bring your attention to this from Round 8 of Midgard 1:

I was a little surprised that no-one made a challenge. If the right player had been challenged and the right player had won that challenge the town might have had a chance to win. If Stig or Alexander had been challenged by Husar, he could have removed one of them from the game. In my rules there would only be one kill attempt a night and Idun would have protected two.

By that point, the Jotun were down to two. So, according to Sigurd, putting them to 1 allows them only 1 kill.

So both Motep and Traitorix could be Jotun if we work off the assumption that there are 3 Jotun.

It is probably at least 1 of them. Might be both.

It now seems clear that at least 1, and maybe even 2, Jotun are played by inactive players. And Motep and Traitorix are two of the most inactive players we have.

[Andres]

We can use the Holmgang to put two suspects against each other.

In think it's in the towns' best interest to decide by majority vote who should challenge who and than have only one challenge, to make sure that it will indeed be the two most suspicious people who have to fight.

This will make sure that it is at least a suspect who will die in the Holmgang.

And whoever refuses to cooperate (i.e. an elected suspect refuses to challenge the other), can be lynched

To avoid any misunderstandings or any misinterpretation by the host, I suggest we vote for the Holmgang as such:

Suspect 1 : X
Suspect 2 : Y

The suspects with the most votes have to challenge each other. No other challenges are allowed.

Can we all agree on that?

[Tratorix]

I suspect you are Jotun...

You were missing on Day 1:

There was only one kill on Night 1 and in Midgard 1 there was 2 kill attempts a night.

You have a 12 day hole in your posting.

And Sigurd said this earlier today:

So, I submit that Tratorix is Jotun and has just now received his PM telling him so. He missed his kill on N1 which caused the Jotun to miss a kill last night.

The Jotun most likely have at least 1 absentee member. I believe it is Tratorix. While lurking is normal for mafioso, it seems they are actually failing to get night PM's submitted.

Tomorrow we should lynch Tratorix.

Genius.

Looks like I'm going to keep up my streak of getting killed in the first few days of every game I join.

[Privateerkev]

We can use the Holmgang to put two suspects against each other.

In think it's in the towns' best interest to decide by majority vote who should challenge who and than have only one challenge, to make sure that it will indeed be the two most suspicious people who have to fight.

This will make sure that it is at least a suspect who will die in the Holmgang.

And whoever refuses to cooperate (i.e. an elected suspect refuses to challenge the other), can be lynched

To avoid any misunderstandings or any misinterpretation by the host, I suggest we vote for the Holmgang as such:

Suspect 1 : X
Suspect 2 : Y

The suspects with the most votes have to challenge each other. No other challenges are allowed.

Can we all agree on that?

Seems complicated. During the day, we vote to lynch. At night, we challenge. Your proposing adding a third mechanic into this. Where does it go? Do we vote for suspects during the day while we are also voting for the lynch candidate? Or do we do it at night? The problem with doing it during the day is that I can see people confusing the multiple kinds of voting they are asked to do. The problem with doing it at night is that a lot of people aren't active enough to get 2 seperate mechanics done in 24 hours. And keep in mind that unlike doing it during the day, doing it at night would require one mechanic to take place before the other. You would have to get everyone to vote on challenge suspects. Then you'd have to get those people to challenge each other. If everyone is not active, it seems like it would be easy for a few people to derail the whole thing.

I like the spirit of what you propose but I am stuck on how to best implement it.