The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

[Privateerkev]

Genius.

Looks like I'm going to keep up my streak of getting killed in the first few days of every game I join.

I notice your not refuting my claim that you are Jotun...

[seireikhaan]

And who is some sort of extinct ugly bird. "khaan" indeed.

I welcome our enclosure by the höslur and vébond.

Well played, good sir.



Kev, I think you're chasing up the wrong tree, myself. For one, this is a whole other game from Midgard I, and we don't know exactly how things will work yet. Furthermore, there's the issue that someone could have missed out on the night phase, and come back in time to vote in the day phase. That's just not a decent reason to lynch someone, to be frank.

[Privateerkev]

But mafia were not active much this night either. Sigurd himself posted earlier that he hadn't gotten night PM's yet.

Fact: There was only 1 kill on N1.

Fact: There were two people missing on D1.

Fact: In Midgard 1, if it was down to 1 Jotun, there would only be 1 kill. Otherwise, there were 2 kills.

Fact: As of 4am US CT today, Sigurd said no one had sent night PM's yet.

Fact: According to post history, Traitorix was missing for approximately 12 days. Or at least not posting.

Fact: Motep has been gone off the board since the game started.

These are all facts and they are verifiable and undeniable.

Now, from this, I string together a theory where I admit I do some guesswork.

Theory: I believe Traitorix and/or Motep got Jotun role PM's but were not around on N1, D1, and part of N2. Therefore, them missing caused the remaining Jotun to only get off one kill on N1. Traitorix himself has not denied being Jotun. He only commented that he dies early all the time.

Now, based off these same facts, I am more than open to other theories. Let's hear them...

*edit*

And khaan, my reason for lynching them is far more valid than most reasons given in the first few days of mafia games. And you know that...

[Andres]

Seems complicated. During the day, we vote to lynch. At night, we challenge. Your proposing adding a third mechanic into this. Where does it go? Do we vote for suspects during the day while we are also voting for the lynch candidate? Or do we do it at night? The problem with doing it during the day is that I can see people confusing the multiple kinds of voting they are asked to do. The problem with doing it at night is that a lot of people aren't active enough to get 2 seperate mechanics done in 24 hours. And keep in mind that unlike doing it during the day, doing it at night would require one mechanic to take place before the other. You would have to get everyone to vote on challenge suspects. Then you'd have to get those people to challenge each other. If everyone is not active, it seems like it would be easy for a few people to derail the whole thing.

I like the spirit of what you propose but I am stuck on how to best implement it.

Vote for lynch during the day, select suspects to fight each other during the night. How is that complicated?

Look at the Holmgang as a sort of lynching. Instead of lynching one suspect, you put two suspects against each other and at least one dies.

[seireikhaan]

But mafia were not active much this night either. Sigurd himself posted earlier that he hadn't gotten night PM's yet.

Fact: There was only 1 kill on N1.

Fact: There were two people missing on D1.

Fact: In Midgard 1, if it was down to 1 Jotun, there would only be 1 kill. Otherwise, there were 2 kills.

Fact: As of 4am US CT today, Sigurd said no one had sent night PM's yet.

Fact: According to post history, Traitorix was missing for approximately 12 days. Or at least not posting.

Fact: Motep has been gone off the board since the game started.

These are all facts and they are verifiable and undeniable.

Now, from this, I string together a theory where I admit I do some guesswork.

Theory: I believe Traitorix and/or Motep got Jotun role PM's but were not around on N1, D1, and part of N2. Therefore, them missing caused the remaining Jotun to only get off one kill on N1. Traitorix himself has not denied being Jotun. He only commented that he dies early all the time.

Now, based off these same facts, I am more than open to other theories. Let's hear them...

*edit*

And khaan, my reason for lynching them is far more valid than most reasons given in the first few days of mafia games. And you know that...

Theories? I like to keep them quiet until night events have been posted.

[Privateerkev]

Vote for lynch during the day, select suspects to fight each other during the night. How is that complicated?

Look at the Holmgang as a sort of lynching. Instead of lynching one suspect, you put two suspects against each other and at least one dies.

Because at night we also challenge. So, we'd have to vote at night. And then at some point before the deadline, we'd have to get the two suspects to challenge each other. What if they are not online? Some of us only have certain windows on when they can be online. We're lucky if we get people here once in a 24 hour period.

Unless you propose maybe 12 hours of voting for suspects, and then leave 12 for the challengers to challenge each other. But 12 hours might not be enough to get everyone's input.

[Andres]

Theories? I like to keep them quiet until night events have been posted.

Fair enough.

How about using the Holmgang system to our advantage? Do you have better suggestions than mine?

There's no harm in discussing that.

[TinCow]

PK is right about the timing issue on the Holmgang vote. There is no way the town would be organized well enough to ensure that such a vote gets pulled off properly. It essentially would mean that the entire debate on who should challenge who should be conducted within the first 12 hours of the evening. I seriously doubt whether enough people will be online often enough to make that a productive or accurate vote. It would be open to serious tampering by the Jotun.

If this is really going to be done, the best option is simply to vote on it alongside the lynch vote. Simply have every person write three things during the 'vote' phase:
Vote: X
Suspect: Y
Suspect: Z

That way when the voting is done, we will have the vote for Holmgang completed and ready to issue. The town can then tell those two people that we expect them to challenge one another. If they do not challenge each other, we can lynch one of them. We can also lynch someone who challenges when they have not been given permission to do so.

There is, however, a bit of a wrench in this: enforcement. Such a system will only work if people really do believe that they have to obey it or be lynched. The first time someone violates such a self-imposed rule and gets away with it, the entire system will collapse. So, unless we're seriously committed to lynching on the basis of complaince with a vote for Holmgang, then we shouldn't bother with this. I'm undecided at the moment on whether lynching on this basis alone is valuable to us.

[Motep]

Im sorry, the guild has been crashing on me all day...

While I am insulted at PrivateerKev's accusations, I can only say that I dont blame him for suspecting me. (I dont exactly have the best track record in so far as being active...just look at my other games...). At least he is getting something done.

I like Andres' method of holmang, pick two suspects and have them duke it out. If you really suspect them, you can always lynch the survivor on the next day. Our current method is notoriously random and dangerous to the town, despite the fact that it is just soo much fun!

To speak on my behalf, I would have particiapated sooner, but for the fact that I went camping with my Father this weekend, proving myself to be an incompetent fisherman.

[seireikhaan]

Fair enough.

How about using the Holmgang system to our advantage? Do you have better suggestions than mine?

There's no harm in discussing that.

I think TinCow's nailed the problem with it. When it comes right down to it, there's simply no way of enforcing this, to be bluntly honest. There's nothing we can do to actually force the people to issue the challenges, unless we back it up with the threat of lynching. And if we do that, we can potentially hamstring ourselves in the event that other suspects arise.

The only real thing that I think the town can realistically do is to put pressure on each other to stave off the urge to immediately put forth a challenge, and to discuss who's someone who needs to be challenged, and who would be best to challenge them.

[Privateerkev]

PK is right about the timing issue on the Holmgang vote. There is no way the town would be organized well enough to ensure that such a vote gets pulled off properly. It essentially would mean that the entire debate on who should challenge who should be conducted within the first 12 hours of the evening. I seriously doubt whether enough people will be online often enough to make that a productive or accurate vote. It would be open to serious tampering by the Jotun.

If this is really going to be done, the best option is simply to vote on it alongside the lynch vote. Simply have every person write three things during the 'vote' phase:
Vote: X
Suspect: Y
Suspect: Z

That way when the voting is done, we will have the vote for Holmgang completed and ready to issue. The town can then tell those two people that we expect them to challenge one another. If they do not challenge each other, we can lynch one of them. We can also lynch someone who challenges when they have not been given permission to do so.

There is, however, a bit of a wrench in this: enforcement. Such a system will only work if people really do believe that they have to obey it or be lynched. The first time someone violates such a self-imposed rule and gets away with it, the entire system will collapse. So, unless we're seriously committed to lynching on the basis of complaince with a vote for Holmgang, then we shouldn't bother with this. I'm undecided at the moment on whether lynching on this basis alone is valuable to us.

I'm also worried that we'll be using up our lynch chances with challenge violations. Every time you lynch someone for violating this new rule we are about to make up, then you are not lynching people for meatballing, abstaining, lurking, acting different, being defensive, ect... We'd have to stop enforcing our new rule for a turn just do lynch for these normal tried and tested mafia game reasons. And once we stop enforcing it, it would be hard to take it back up.

I mean, what would have precedence? Say we have a challenge violation but someone is acting funny. Do we drop the lynch for the challenge violator and go after the person who is acting funny? If we do that, then our enforcement of the challenge rule will fail.

[Craterus]

Talk about catch 22!

Someone's wrongly suspected of being Jotun and they actually have a ridiculously low Holmgang ability. Do they challenge and essentially suicide in the Holmgang or face lynch the next day?

Sorry, I know we're going for organisation and efficiency but I think there are some serious flaws with this. However, if it's what we end up doing (hopefully with some tweaks), I'll be supportive.

[TinCow]

I mean, what would have precedence? Say we have a challenge violation but someone is acting funny. Do we drop the lynch for the challenge violator and go after the person who is acting funny? If we do that, then our enforcement of the challenge rule will fail.

Exactly the problem. I think about the best we can do is ask everyone to give a detailed explanation for their reason to challenge someone. If we can't stop the challenges, we need to focus on getting viable information out of them. It's pretty much a proven system that the more people talk, the better the town's odds are. So, let's get the challengers talking about why they are challenging in great detail. If people do not explain, let's hammer them until they do.

[Privateerkev]

I think we should just use "peer pressure" on joke-challenges the same that we do with abstains, meatballing, randoming, lurking, bandwagoning, ect...

We don't always enforce the above "rules" but everyone who violates them knows they might draw attention to themselves. I say joke-challenges should be seen the same way. Strongly discouraged but not a lynchable offense unless there are no better lynch targets. The same way that we don't lynch abstainers unless there is no one better to lynch.

*edit*

Was writing this as TC wrote his. I support his idea of grilling challengers.

[Sigurd]

Night ended...

Writeup in process.

[El Diablo]

The only issue I can see with using the Holmgang as a means of ferreting out Jotan is that from what I have heard the Jotun have a very high Holmgang score. Thus in any duel the winner is probably the Jotan?

Thus if we pick (for the sake of argument) two innocent townies (with say both low Holmgang scores) one will win and we will give the other a huge amont of suspicion due to the fact he probably has a high score and hint at being Jotun.

It sounds to me like the old way of finding out if someone was a witch.. toss her in a lake. If she drowns she was not a witch (oops) and if she can swin/float burn her at the stake...

[Privateerkev]

I looked at the end-game write-up for Midgard 1. And Stig (Jotun) fought in Holmgang when there were 2 kills on both round 5 and 6. So, it seems that fighting in Holmgang doesn't stop you from killing.

Also of note, someone who fought in Holmgang was also a kill victim. They lost the Holmgang and the writeup showed a kill attempt that found the potential kill victim not in bed. (because he was already dead from Holmgang.)

Furthermore, when someone protected a kill attempt victim, it showed in a write-up as the killing having failed. So, there only being 1 kill in our game is probably not because of a night action but because of the lack of a night action being submitted.

Another thing, Holmgang writeups did give clues in Midgard 1. Not that they should be taken as gospel but there were hints as to the indentities of the participants. A townie versus a veteran had a write-up that reflected the experience and ability of the two people. Read the Round 3 write-up of the Holmgang between Lord Otep and Orb.

PS: Reading the Midgard 1 thread along side both the end-game write-up and the end-game tally is most helpful. :D

[Motep]

I looked at the end-game write-up for Midgard 1. And Stig (Jotun) fought in Holmgang when there were 2 kills on both round 5 and 6. So, it seems that fighting in Holmgang doesn't stop you from killing.

Also of note, someone who fought in Holmgang was also a kill victim. They lost the Holmgang and the writeup showed a kill attempt that found the potential kill victim not in bed. (because he was already dead from Holmgang.)

Furthermore, when someone protected a kill attempt victim, it showed in a write-up as the killing having failed. So, there only being 1 kill in our game is probably not because of a night action but because of the lack of a night action being submitted.

Right. Had we a kill action, we woould have gotten a pretty little write up, even were it stopped. Unless of course, our host is lazy, which I have yet to see signs of.

Then again, they could have all attacked one guy, but that lacks sense and would have likely been evident in the write up.

[Tratorix]

But mafia were not active much this night either. Sigurd himself posted earlier that he hadn't gotten night PM's yet.

Fact: There was only 1 kill on N1.

Fact: There were two people missing on D1.

Fact: In Midgard 1, if it was down to 1 Jotun, there would only be 1 kill. Otherwise, there were 2 kills.

Fact: As of 4am US CT today, Sigurd said no one had sent night PM's yet.

Fact: According to post history, Traitorix was missing for approximately 12 days. Or at least not posting.

Fact: Motep has been gone off the board since the game started.

These are all facts and they are verifiable and undeniable.

Now, from this, I string together a theory where I admit I do some guesswork.

Theory: I believe Traitorix and/or Motep got Jotun role PM's but were not around on N1, D1, and part of N2. Therefore, them missing caused the remaining Jotun to only get off one kill on N1. Traitorix himself has not denied being Jotun. He only commented that he dies early all the time.

Now, based off these same facts, I am more than open to other theories. Let's hear them...

*edit*

And khaan, my reason for lynching them is far more valid than most reasons given in the first few days of mafia games. And you know that...

I didn't deny being Jotun because that goes without saying. If I had stated that I wasn't Jotun, you would probably be asking why I felt the need to say it. While I can't really dispute any of your facts, I do think its a rather weak case. I haven't posted here in a while, but I have checked the fairly regularly. You seem to be very quickly jumping to conclusions. Coincidences do happen, you know.

[Privateerkev]

I didn't deny being Jotun because that goes without saying. If I had stated that I wasn't Jotun, you would probably be asking why I felt the need to say it. While I can't really dispute any of your facts, I do think its a rather weak case. I haven't posted here in a while, but I have checked the fairly regularly. You seem to be very quickly jumping to conclusions. Coincidences do happen, you know.

Well, no one is putting forth any stronger cases yet. The first couple days of mafia games are usually full of meatballing, randomness, and general distractions.

Now, I have real lynch targets in front of me. I have admitted the holes in my logic. I have stated clearly what the facts are. And I have stated clearly where I am making guesses.

But, it is not even day 2 yet. We don't have much to go on. But what we do know is that for some reason, the Jotun missed a kill last night. That probably wouldn't happen unless Jotun were absent in real life. And the two of you have been absent in real life at the same time that it seems Jotun were absent.

Is my case weak? Yup. But show me a better one. On day 2 we're going to have to lynch someone. It might as well be someone who was absent from the board when it seems that Jotun were absent.

[Sigurd]

Round 2


The crowd were still a little agitated for not knowing which Kingdom CountArach belonged to. They even went as far as accusing each other for lying. “Surely that bastard was a Norwegian”, someone said. “In your dreams flat head, even a nursing child could have seen he was a Dane. The stink was on him”.
Some of the Swea people started chuckling. That was too much for Kukrikhan. “You talk like your mother, that sweet mountain goat I ran into the last time I visited your mountain”. makaikhaan was already worked up. “You speak of goats, valley rat, but do you even have a manhood that reaches that far up? Because your legs must have died trying to get past the first 100 yards on that mountain. We all know you can’t climb worth spit”. *spits*
Kukrikhan answered: “You must have fallen down from that mountain and cracked your head, trying to manoeuvre that wit of yours. It is leaking out your behind leaving a trail were daisies grow”. That was the final straw for makaikhaan. “Show me strength of arm were your mouth is weak”. He was about to draw sword when some of his companions grabbed him and held him down. The law speaker was moving towards the commotion and when he saw makaikhaan with the sword drawn and pinned to the ground, he knew this called for action. “Alright, the law speaks against continuing any blood feuds or the like at Althing. However, broken honour can be settled by Holmgang. If two men enter the Holme with the intent of settling a score, it is settled by the result. Families and kin can’t carry on the feud. Is this understood?” The onlookers agreed. The young law speaker could see that murder was in the eyes of both makaikhaan and Kukrikhan. “I take it these two men would want to fight such a Holmgang?” the two men grunted agreeable sounds. “Ok, since there are no Holme in this area, we will make a circle in the crowd for the men to fight in”. The throng of men formed a circle around makaikhan and Kukrikhan. Two wooden shields were thrown on the ground and makaikhaan and Kukrikhaan each took one. They were both of equal size. Both had their blade in hand and hatred lighted their eyes.
makaikhaan makes the first move and swings a heavy blow towards Kukri’s head. Kukri deflects and catches the full force of the blade on the shield. A loud crack is heard as the shield is visibly weakened. Kukri retaliates with an underhand swing trying to catch makai in the unprotected sword hand armpit. makai are just able to swing the shield round and deflects Kukri’s sword, but the word bounce off and nicks makai’s elbow.
makai is in trouble as he loses some of his arm strength. Kukri sees his opportunity and rams makai with the half broken shield.
makai falls and Kukri in his blood lust follow the falling motion with the tip of his sword and puts his whole weight into it. As makai hits the ground, Kukri’s sword pierces makai’s torso. The fight is as fast over as it started, with makai lying on the ground. But this time it is a sword which is pinning him to the ground. He grasps for breath, but can’t find any and darkness soon envelope him.


The crowd dispersed and left makaikhaan’s body to his Norwegian friends. They all stared after Kukrikhaan and the rest of the Danes leaving the scene with merriments over the spawn of the mountain goat’s misfortune.


Later one of them, Caius, takes a swallow of water from one of the casks that stand in the middle of the Danish camp. He thinks it has a funny aftertaste but thinks naught of it. He never sees the dwarf sitting nearby with a sly smile on his face.
As Caius nears his bedroll, he feels very tired. When he finally closes his eyes, it is if he never will be able to open them again.

***

The following morning the Danish camp is in uproar. One of their men is found sleeping the endless sleep and they immediately suspect the dirty Norwegians for this foul trick of cowardice.
They march to the law speaker and demands justice.
The young law speaker just sighs and as if he hadn’t suspected this from the onset continues: “You will return here later with a name. The person whom the name belongs to, will atone for this deed done to all of you. You must be democratic about it and all the kingdoms must join. Now go.”

The law speaker shook his head in disgust. This is what you get when a gathering of pagans meet together; all superstition and blood feuds. I strongly suspected this was only the beginning of a tragedy.






Killed: (2)

Twilightblade (N1)
Caius (N2)

Killed in Holmgang: (1)

makaikhaan (N2)

Lynched: (1)

CountArach (D1)

Living: (32)
Andres
Craterus
Crazed Rabbit
discovery1
El Diablo
Eliit Tuhkur
FactionHeir
Fenring
Gaius Scribonius Curio
GeneralHankerchief
glyphz
Husar
Ichigo
Kagemusha
Kukrikhan
LittleGrizzly
Motep
Omanes Alexandrapolites
pevergreen
Privateerkev
Proletariat
Quintus.J.Cicero
Rythmic
Sarathos
scottishranger
Seamus Fermanagh
shlin28
TevashSzat
TinCow
Tratorix
Warmaster Horus
woad&fangs

Start voting people. Deadline tomorrow 12th of August at 2000 GMT

[Privateerkev]

still only one kill...

Well !@#$ that takes the wind out of my sails with Motep and Traitorix. They've been online and could have sent a kill pm before Sigurd closed the window for night pm's.

[Andres]

Sigurd, you still have makaikhaan in the alive list, but he got killed by Kukri in the Holmgang

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, you still have makaikhaan in the alive list, but he got killed by Kukri in the Holmgang

You need to be quicker friend... It's all taken care of... 4 minutes before your post. And yes... I did forget.

[Andres]

You need to be quicker friend... It's all taken care of... 4 minutes before your post. And yes... I did forget.

Wow, I'm getting slow...

[Privateerkev]

vote: Tratorix

Was missing from board when only 1 kill happened on N1. He was online before the deadline to send in the N2 pm's passed which weakens my case. But he could have just refrained from sending in a PM.

I admit this case is weak. But we need to vote and I quite simply do not have a stronger case on someone else yet. This vote at least has a incremental bit more forethought than the usual D2 votes. Which tend to be tons of random.org, meatballing, revenge votes for past games, votes to get people talking, ect...

If I see a stronger case, I'll move my vote.

Tally:

Tratorix: 1 (Privateerkev)

[FactionHeir]

Kukri seems to have a very high duel score judging from the quick fight...

[Motep]

Kukri seems to have a very high duel score judging from the quick fight...

not necceasrily. My duel in the last game was right quick, but I believe that I had a holmang of 4 or 5. I doubt that the win is from so much as skill as it is from the host's writing preference.

[Privateerkev]

Kukri seems to have a very high duel score judging from the quick fight...

Or he was lucky. If Sigurd is using the same system, this could mean that Kukri won all of his "rolls." (Sigurd explained this in the last game as putting paper in a bowl. Person X having a Y Holmgang score would mean Y number of paper in the bowl in one color. Person Z having a A Holmgang score would mean A number of paper in a bowl in that color. Then one paper in B color would be "draw". Sigured would then pull the paper out one at a time and write up the report based on that sequence.)

I notice neither khaan, nor Caius were greeted by a woman in the afterlife. I'll have to go back over Midgard 1 writeups to see what that could mean.

[Motep]

Or he was lucky. If Sigurd is using the same system, this could mean that Kukri won all of his "rolls." (Sigurd explained this in the last game as putting paper in a bowl. Person X having a Y Holmgang score would mean Y number of paper in the bowl in one color. Person Z having a A Holmgang score would mean A number of paper in a bowl in that color. Then one paper in B color would be "draw". Sigured would then pull the paper out one at a time and write up the report based on that sequence.)

I notice neither khaan, nor Caius were greeted by a woman in the afterlife. I'll have to go back over Midgard 1 writeups to see what that could mean.

Oh. Never mind, then.