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    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Do you also support the regime? China is certainly the record-holder for suppression during the Olympic Games. Today more protesters were arrested for unfolding a flag about Tibet, i.e. for simply expressing their opinions. Another journalist was roughed up. Tourists can't take a picture of Tienanmen Square without being stopped, harassed or whisked away by some illiterate idiot in a uniform. How can a Chinese be proud of this zombie circus with drilled supporters, faked hymns and corrupt party bosses? In their place I would be deeply ashamed.
    Let's take this one by one:

    1.) Do I support the regime? My family is heavily involved in the regime and ranks quite highly in it. I fully support it. The regime has done a lot of good things for China too. :China:

    2.) Please use the designated protest zones for unfurling flags about Tibet. Also, please shut up about Tibet. As a reference, try to imagine if Wyoming tried to secede from the United States, and kicked up a on the international media every time the US govt. tried to stop it. Another way to look at it is that you know the Dutch would have held onto Indonesia if they had the forces to do so.

    3.) The police are hardly illiterate. Also, the Chinese aren't the only people to randomly arrest people for taking pictures of landmarks. I recall it is a prominent practice in the United States too.

    4.) Congratulations, you've pretty much described *all* the Olympics. Zombie circus precisely describes why I'm not watching the Olympics either. Ever since I started Parkour, I realized just how meaningless most Olympic events are. Sports are meant to be played, not watched.

    5.) Li Ning was picked as the guy to light the torch not because he was rich. That acrobatic wire stunt takes an enormous amount of strength to pull off, and in the intervening years between his Olympic performances and now, Mr. Li has kept himself in the best of shape, allowing himself to actually complete something as insane as doing a sideways lap across the stadium. Also, he himself is a 3 time gold medalist in gymnastics.

    6.) Little Grizzly: Surprisingly, most of the Olympic budget was to build vital infrastructure that was badly needed. And speaking of bankruptcy, I wonder just how London will fund the 2012 Olympics.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-13-2008 at 14:51. Reason: Language
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    Also, please shut up about Tibet.
    Thank heavens your trained monkeys have no say in this forum and I can bloody well speak as I want to. And thank heavens no one in the free world is impressed by the displays of suffocating obedience and mass kow-towing and drilling surrounding these games. Whenever such regimes try to convey an image of hospitality and national harmony to the world, they make utter fools of themselves and that of China is no exception.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Thank heavens your trained monkeys have no say in this forum and I can bloody well speak as I want to. And thank heavens no one in the free world is impressed by the displays of suffocating obedience and mass kow-towing and drilling surrounding these games. Whenever such regimes try to convey an image of hospitality and national harmony to the world, they make utter fools of themselves and that of China is no exception.

    No, you can think what you want about Tibet. Just stop talking about it. That's the only thing that comes to the lips of every sinophobe ever. China has tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of problems you can focus on. Tibet isn't one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    6.) Little Grizzly: Surprisingly, most of the Olympic budget was to build vital infrastructure that was badly needed. And speaking of bankruptcy, I wonder just how London will fund the 2012 Olympics.

    It was not a serious point, don't worry most of britian will be fine, its Londoners that have to fund the olympics
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    No, you can think what you want about Tibet. Just stop talking about it. That's the only thing that comes to the lips of every sinophobe ever. China has tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of problems you can focus on. Tibet isn't one of them.
    Oh sure, China has tons and tons of self-imposed problems, and Tibet is only one of them. I know it makes you and your family and every so-called loyal Chinese mad as hell to hear about Tibet day and night, at every street corner, in every newspaper, every internet discussion. Here you are organizing the Olympic Games, and Tibet demonstrators follow your torch all across the world, manhandle it, ridicule it, even snuff it. hahaha, I love it. And it's not going to stop, ever - until Tibet gets a decent deal, which is inevitably going to be part of wider reforms that put an end to the horrible official slavery in your country. No dumb light show in a stadium will ever efface the truth.
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    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Oh sure, China has tons and tons of self-imposed problems, and Tibet is only one of them. I know it makes you and your family and every so-called loyal Chinese mad as hell to hear about Tibet day and night, at every street corner, in every newspaper, every internet discussion. Here you are organizing the Olympic Games, and Tibet demonstrators follow your torch all across the world, manhandle it, ridicule it, even snuff it. hahaha, I love it. And it's not going to stop, ever - until Tibet gets a decent deal, which is inevitably going to be part of wider reforms that put an end to the horrible official slavery in your country. No dumb light show in a stadium will ever efface the truth.
    What truth? That the Tibetans are bunch of savage primitives tamed only with the lash? They're certainly not the peace loving hippies the west makes them out to be. China has every right to conquer Tibet, just like how the Netherlands has every right to conquer... oh wait, it's too weak to hold onto its own colonies. I know full well, and so do the Chinese people, what China is doing is imperialism, plain and simple. I still support it, because it's the right thing to do. I'm actually surprised at the level of mercy the Chinese government has show in Tibet, when we simply could have killed them all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives. You only want Tibet to get a decent deal to weaken China so that maybe, your pathetic collection of reclaimed islands jutting out of the North Sea will have a chance at glory again. Very few people actually care about human rights, and most of those only do so out of their own national self interest. I seriously doubt you actually care about the Tibetans, so much as you are alarmed by China's power. And if you do care about the Tibetans, you are a deluded fool for thinking they are a good and peaceful people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    What truth?
    If your country had press freedom, then maybe you could discuss it openly and find out what it is.

    And instead of your antiquated propaganda talk I prefer to lend my ear to Chinese dissidents. One of the most outspoken is Bao Tong, former aide to the late (and ousted) Chinese premier, Zhao Ziyang. He has been under house arrest for many years, but since they are afraid to kill him he can speak his mind and smuggle his views out. Radio Free Asia published a long essay which he wrote about the Olympic Games in Beijing and the massive oppression that went into them. It's long, but very interesting, particularly since he is a former member of the elite himself.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It is very naive to take the number of gold medals won as an indicator of the rise of China. That sort of patriotism...has nothing to do with the Olympic spirit...There are subtle differences between China and other countries when it comes to the training and selection of athletes. Other countries use athletics as a way of training the body. China uses athletics to snatch prizes.

    China has sponsored a top-down professionalized system, a totally segregated approach to athletic training. Non-Chinese may not understand the term "away from production." It has its roots in the Chinese Communist Party's experience of the 1927-37 Chinese civil war, when peasants who relied on the land for their existence took up arms as their revolutionary duty to fight for a share of it. In the process, they were torn away from their families, from the rest of society, and from normal economic activities. They were said to be taken "away from production" to fulfill this task.

    China's athletes are chosen as young children...and taken away from their families, from their schools, and totally cut off from normal social activities. The door is closed, and they give up their entire youth and part of their childhoods for the sole aim of entering and winning competitions, an aim for which they are totally re-molded by the system.

    Elitist training

    China has the largest population of any country in the world, and therefore an unending supply of human resources with which to win glory and acclaim for country and Party. But it is a totally different thing from encouraging ordinary Chinese people to get fitter and healthier.

    A gold medal is just a gold medal. It is not of the same order as the well-being of the people, or the fate of the nation. The former Soviet Union won countless gold medals. The gold medals are still there today, but where is the Soviet Union?

    China's array of medals and prizes was produced out of the sweat, tears, and lives of generations of athletes and paralympians...You can't use the achievements of our young people to cover up or to dilute the mistakes of the country's leaders.

    The Chinese Communist Party has used the Olympics as a way of suppressing all other political duties. It has put all its energy into this for the past decade, emptying out the last drop of strength. All political, economic, propaganda, and diplomatic effort has been channeled into the Olympics. The entire Party and nation has repeated the message about the importance of the Games time and again, an importance which is greater than that of the fight against corruption, disaster relief efforts, human rights, or the livelihood and welfare of ordinary Chinese.

    Ordinary citizens pay the price

    It is hard to see how the efforts of ordinary people will be repaid. Aside from the more obvious contributions of effort and money from those who have it, there are all those people who have had their land grabbed away from them, or whose homes have been forcibly demolished, or who have been forced to give up their...business. Those who have been forced to return to their hometown as part of the pre-Olympics "clean-up," or those who have been detained against their will. Those who have been forbidden to speak, forbidden to conduct interviews, forbidden to offer legal services, or forbidden from helping people stand up for their civil rights or property.

    There is a fly in the ointment, and that lies in the fact that the Chinese government has refused to keep the promises it made to improve human rights and to allow greater press freedom when it applied to host the Games in the first place.

    In the eight years since China applied to host the Games, with the continued suppression of human rights and continuing controls on the freedom of the press, those promises have turned into nothing but empty words. And an empty promise is very hard to keep.

    Chinese people who have had their rights infringed know it. A lot of the international media know it. Communist Party and government officials know it too, in their heart of hearts. Who would have the gall to propose or second this motion, to talk the empty talk about "the best Olympic Games ever"?

    Manufacturing injustice

    The best at suppressing the news? Maybe. The best at trampling on people's rights? Perhaps. Even though the curtain has yet to rise on the Olympics, we can say with 100 percent certainty that we have lost all hope of being "the best."

    There is one extremely good thing about a one-party system, and that is that it can achieve pretty much anything it wants to. That's why Deng Xiaoping said that China should never go the way of the West, because it was terribly troublesome, and that any attempt to get anything done petered out in argument. That's quite right. Who would have dared to argue with Deng or Mao? That's why Mao announced in 1976 that Deng was an enemy of the people, and why Deng announced in 1989 that Zhao Ziyang was the enemy.

    History repeats itself, and the wheel comes full circle. Leaders at every level have to deal with dissenting opinion, and at every level they have the power to brand the other a public enemy. In China, we produce miscarriages of justice and trumped-up charges like a high-intensity industrial zone, rolling them off the conveyor belt at a rate no-one else can match.

    We are so efficient at it: Why stop now? It is a task beloved of Chinese officials at every level of leadership. One thing they are particularly good at, for example, is allowing people they like to get rich first. All you need to get a bank loan in the blink of an eye is the favor of a local ranking official. In the blink of another eye, you can acquire a whole state enterprise for the token price of between three and five percent of its market value, which you can then transfer into your own private ownership.

    One-party system

    In the same blink of the eye, you can get access to a plot of land "approved" for your use, expel a large crowd of people who live on it and farm it, and begin a lucrative career as a property developer. Will anyone make a fuss? Well, that's easy to deal with. In the blink of an eye, anyone making a fuss will have lost their livelihood and received a warning from the authorities. Who will have the courage to publish such a negative news story? That would be revealing state and Party secrets, calling all sorts of trouble down on the heads of the journalist and even the whole newspaper.

    In the case of a lawsuit being filed, the lawyer will either be warned off, obstructed at every turn, or have his license to practice taken away, or be convicted himself of a criminal offense. In the case of any mass unrest, the last resort is to send the security forces in to stamp out trouble. There is one of these "mass petitioning incidents" in China every five minutes, 80,000 a year, and they are all the inevitable by-product of a one-party system.

    Under today's one-party system, we have a highly efficient system for an exponential increase in the gap between rich and poor, for corruption, state-sponsored robbery, oppression, and for the control of information. All these things fit together seamlessly. This is the human rights record and the state of press freedom against which it will be very hard to gain any improvements. This is the big, bad secret.

    The efficiency of the one-party system can be applied in any number of ways. For example, to stop anything from happening that Party leaders do not like. China has been a People's Republic for 59 years now, but we haven't seen any progress in the direction of democracy in any of those years. The only reason China sent a delegate to the United Nations to sign the covenants on human rights back in October 1998 was because of the forthcoming application to host the 2008 Olympics.

    Voting with their feet

    As soon as the bid was successful, the thing was shoved into the shadows. The National People's Congress was never asked to ratify it. Putting on a show is indeed very efficient. Actually doing something is very inefficient. Thanks to China's one-party system, they really have been able to make a momentary difference to the air quality in Beijing. But as soon as the Games are over, who knows how many lifetimes ordinary Chinese residents will have to wait to get decent air to breathe again.

    There is one clear barometer of how good a political system is. It's no good listening to what people say; mouths are very unreliable. You have to look at what the feet are doing. A good system will attract people. People in China may be living quite happily, and foreigners may make light of traveling a thousand miles to visit. But would they want to emigrate here? When they have seen the Olympics, seen the show, and had a chance to understand Chinese people a bit better, and to compare China to their own country, then what? I am certain that while they will say a lot of nice things about China, they are not going to start flooding in to live here. Whereas Chinese people would be leaving in their tens of thousands if the opportunity was there. That is my prediction. History will be the judge of whether I am right or not.

    linky

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    nvm.
    Last edited by Andres; 08-13-2008 at 14:55.
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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    are there any updating lists of medals per-capita and medals per GDP by any chance, might make interesting reading............?


    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    I'm actually surprised at the level of mercy the Chinese government has show in Tibet, when we simply could have killed them all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives.
    i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculu5 View Post
    i can find only one reference to genocide relating to african colonialism, and it was by germany rather than all european colonial nations all the time wherever we went in africa:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_Genocide
    I can think of two more. The British concentration camps in the Second Boer War and the Belgian Congo.

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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    I am glad to say, I haven't seen any of it. YEY! No boring drugged up uber-men/uber-women running/swimming/jumping in circles.
    #Hillary4prism

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    What truth? That the Tibetans are bunch of savage primitives tamed only with the lash? They're certainly not the peace loving hippies the west makes them out to be. China has every right to conquer Tibet, just like how the Netherlands has every right to conquer... oh wait, it's too weak to hold onto its own colonies.

    The impression i am getting from your whole 'speech' is a pathetic teenager who is using his country as a penis measuring device..... on the topic of penis measuring remind me exactly who it was that stopped japan slaughtering and raping your citizens en masse....
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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    World politics aside, and on a more personal note...I am looking forward to the women's pole vault competition. The US Champion, Jenn Stuczynski, is a local gal, and I remember her playing highschool sports, basketball & track, against my oldest daughter's team.
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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    How about we talk of Darfur and the Sudanese forces, backed and armed by the Chinese military?
    Maybe Myanmar, where junta forces restricted food because they feared all those capitalistic ideas?
    Taiwan, where they can't even carry their own flag into a stadium because it's a political statement?
    The corruption of local governors and magistrates whose inadequate control ensures graft and crime?
    Maybe the lax or nonexistent safety standards that China has concerning exports?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel
    when we simply could have killed them (Tibetans) all, sort of like what the Europeans did to the African natives.
    If Europeans killed all the Africans, why are there still Africans?
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Little Grizzly: Certainly not the Dutch.

    Murat: Hey, congratulations, you listed a bunch of things I disapprove of (instead of randomly jumping to Tibet). And why are there still Africans? Why are there still Native Americans? The Europeans certainly tried their best to exploit them, that's for certain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    Little Grizzly: Certainly not the Dutch.
    DA it certainly wasn't the Chinese either, the impression i got from your pathetic little speech was that china deserves these things because it is powerful enough to do so...

    So tell me did Japan have the right to kill and rape the chinese at will because it was powerful enough to do so ?

    If your answer is yes then my next question would be, if the Chinese goverment somehow loses its power and some power like japan in the 40's comes along and starts doing whatever the hell its likes to the chinese you will be ok with it, because they are powerful enough to do so ?

    Or will you complain and ask for assistance similar to tibet now or chinese back in 40's

    Don't dare think just because human rights pose no concern for you that other people don't care for them, as far as im concerned they are one of the most important things, i couldn't care less about chinas current power or potential power i do however care very deeply that the goverment of the worlds largest population couldn't give a damn what it does to its people, even if you don't care for your fellow countrymen i do! and i will continue to do so despite the attitudes of chinese such as yourself!

    Murat: Hey, congratulations, you listed a bunch of things I disapprove of (instead of randomly jumping to Tibet). And why are there still Africans? Why are there still Native Americans? The Europeans certainly tried their best to exploit them, that's for certain

    So clarify for me here... you think the europeans were right to kill lots of people and thats why your ok with the chinese doing it ?

    or you know that what europeans did was wrong but support the chinese doing it because the europeans got to do it a few hundred years ago ?

    I almost hope you are the victim of the human rights abuses you support so much so you can understand the cruelty and unnessecarity of them, but then i don't wish that on anyone...
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Don't forget about most enlightened of fellows Mr. Mugabe.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Indeed. At least the Chinese government wouldn't let him into the country, which is a good first step.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Gentlemen,

    We seem to have lit an Olympic flame of our own. Allow me to suggest that we allow a Zen-like calm descend upon our furrowed brows before reflecting on any further postings.

    This thread was started to share a certain disillusion with the Olympic games as a spectacle, rather than to discuss Chinese politics. I am happy for a new thread to be started on that subject - minus the developing beastliness herein - and for this thread to regain its previous resigned equanimity on the original premise.

    Thank you kindly.

    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    My 3 year old is in gymnastics, my 5 year old was in gymnastics, so we watch some of it. I usually don't watch but like Lemur, i have a wife, she has a vagina, so she controls the remote. I think its been pretty good so far but I will open my veins the next time I hear Phelp's name!!! That dude pisses me of. He's up there with his team recieving his last medal and chatting and laughing while the National Anthem was playing. POS. For the love of God, the other teams showed more reverance (or it could have been a temperary steroid induced coma). We watched the ladies gymnastics last night and watched one gal with a horse neck (someone check that leatard) total kill the team's chance to win. The again, those little Chinese gals (16 years old? shoot, one gal looked like Dora the explorer in the sun shining in her eyes) kicked ass. I guess they figured they better do good or else.

    The saddest part in this whole thing are the folks that don't make it. I was listening to NPR (god help me) the other day and they intervued some Chinese chick that was in her late 20's. She had been training all her life to be a long distance runner by the Chinese Government. She was also in the Chinese Army and was given the choice of training or continueing a more militarily structured life. Well, now she is completely bed-ridden and unable to walk. She lives with her mother. She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs. It was sad because the mother, in front of her daughter, basically called her a waste and a shame to the family. The reporter said there are thousands of stories like this. So it says a lot that so many lives are ruined just for a few days of "glory" on the world stage. Needless to say, my daughter only goes once a week and when we were approached to have her go twice a week in a more intensive program (she's real little for her age and strong) we declined.

    There are some good aspects of the Olympics but unfortunately its so watered down with stories like this and the fact that there are just too many sports cramed into it. I'll watch parts of it but not a lot.

    One last thing... DemonArchangel, if you're such a happy little commie and have parents living it up as oppressors of the people, why do you live in the US? You should live in your little Utopia that your folks and others like them killed, maimed, and tortured so much for.
    RIP Tosa

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    She basically trained so much that she ruined her legs.
    She's welcome to join "HoreTore's Club of People Who Screwed Their Legs From Too Much Running, Skating and/or Skiing".

    Yes, that even happens in democratic countries
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-15-2008 at 13:03.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  22. #22
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    Also, please shut up about Tibet.
    Don't tell him to shutup. He doesn't reside in some oppressed provense where the iron fist of your folks beloved party controls the masses. Did the Chinese government have to teach you how to smile before you came over to the US? That's hillarious that they actually had to tell their own people to smile for this event. What a place to live that you have to have the government tell you when its alright to smile. Sounds like a great place to live to me!!! One more thing, I guess those little chinese girls on the gymnastic team should really be smiling since they didn't get slaughtered by their parents for the hopes of having a boy, or that they havn't been shot or killed for saying anything bad about your parents party. I bet their also happy they got the gold, I shudder to think what will happen to any Chinese athlete that doesn't place in their repective events. You and your government's a joke and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face because, I CAN without having to worry about a bunch of brain washed commie goons coming to kill me or my family for just being a human being with his own beliefs, not some done in a colony of homocidal bees.
    RIP Tosa

  23. #23
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    EDIT: Re-opened. Please continue in a civil manner.

    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-14-2008 at 17:58.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  24. #24
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Im just waiting for track at which point the USA will crack skulls and break records. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  25. #25
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    ...USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
    Whooping on Greece in basketball felt rather good.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  26. #26
    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

    I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

    Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

    Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

    As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

    The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

    Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

    Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

    Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

    As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

    Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

    I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

    China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

    So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

    Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

  27. #27
    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    Quote Originally Posted by TevashSzat View Post
    This is just a repost of my rather long post in another thread here with some changes here or there:

    I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

    Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

    Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

    As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones.

    The nationalists, who were in power for about 3-4 decades before WWII. They were democratic, but they had horrible corruption and generally did not rule the country well at all. Once Japan invaded China and WWII began, the nationalists lost horribly and the nation was basically razed. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but the nationalists were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party. Now might it have been better had the nationalists survived? Perhaps, but you would never know how world history might have changed.

    Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

    Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

    Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

    As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

    Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

    I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

    China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

    So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

    Another addition here: I feel that the Western mindset is very different from the Chinese mindset. Western nations are outraged bu China's human right violations and I am too up to a point. Keep in mind, though, that to a vast majority of the Chinese, fighting local government corruption is much bigger on their priorities than making sure they have freedom of speech or religion. In fact, those arguing for Tibet and the Xinjiang independence are considered to be on the fringe and radicals in China.
    Tl;dr
    HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
    -Martok

  28. #28
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

    whoa, china shot up the gold rankings since i last checked, leaving the US in the dust!


    Quote Originally Posted by DemonArchangel View Post
    Please use the designated protest zones for unfurling flags about Tibet. Also, please shut up about Tibet.
    these people requested use of the dedicated protest zones and got sentenced to a year's ‘re-education through labour':
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_f...ser_in_beijing

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