The Islam Thread...

[caravel]

I'm a Muslim. [moderator's Irony alert] I was raised in a dark room and was taught to kill people like you, also, I'm an experianced suicide bomber and the only words that come through my mind are Jihad and Allah.[/irony] ~Kukri

Ramadan is four days away, so I don't feel like arguing. Believe what you want about Islam, I read the Qur'an every Ramadan and it does not promote violence and bloodshed.

Don't mean to insult y'all but come on, I'm sick of seeing hateful comments towards my religion every time I read through my favorite section of the forum. You can express your thoughts through it, sure, but the subject's getting old.

+1, well said.

It seems that many here base their opinions on the b/s written or spoken in the local right wing / conservative news media. Sad really.

[Devastatin Dave]

+1, well said.

It seems that many here base their opinions on the b/s written or spoken in the local right wing / conservative news media. Sad really.

Or the AP wire...

[AlexanderSextus]

look like i said i dont think that all muslims are crazy suicide bombers that want to kill everyone, its just that the ones that are crazy get justification from the same book that the non-crazy ones read. The particular verses that they get to justify their behavior are pretty straightforward too...but hey, Hax corrected me on the las one i posted, and that was cool. See, i learned something! thats the point of all this.

no need to be pissed off mr. fahad!! i'm not trying to hate on you!

Also, yes, christianity has its fair share of wingnuts, but there is far less room for interpretation than with the bible because, after all, "the Qur'an is perfect".

i'm not trying to be hateful, frankly, i'm just a little scared. You dont see christians or jews bombing trains and buses and stuff. (ok ok yeah technically the OKC bombing, but that seems to be more of a NEO NAZI thing than a christian thing)

oh, and screw the media. if i listened to them i wouldnt be here trying to get the info straight from the horses mouth.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Also, yes, christianity has its fair share of wingnuts, but there is far less room for interpretation than with the bible because, after all, "the Qur'an is perfect".

Infallable scripture.

[rory_20_uk]

But be that as it may, there are many that read the "perfect" book, the other bolt-ons and draw very different conclusions.

[Papewaio]

i'm not trying to be hateful, frankly, i'm just a little scared. You dont see christians or jews bombing trains and buses and stuff. (ok ok yeah technically the OKC bombing, but that seems to be more of a NEO NAZI thing than a christian thing)

Just need to dial back in history far enough.

Now apart from Spanish Inquisitions and Conquistadors...Guy Fawkes... you could go to the last century and look at say the King David Hotel or to the Basques or to Ireland (then a little latter to Northern Ireland).

There is more a direct link between lack of representation and poverty to creating the climate and resources for terrorism. Religion is just a power source and another way of creating an us vs them grouping, other forms of power structures such as Fascism and Communism will be used by those who want power... just be happy that in the US and other functioning Democracies if you want to rule you bombard the air waves with TV Ads.

[JR-]

which is why i think islam will probably be all grown-up in about 500 years, maybe less if the war on terror is actually won and militant expansionist islam discredited as a creed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be honest I don't buy into this "Islam needs to grow up" line. There are several fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity.

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

2. The rise of the two religions was completely different, Christianity is a religion of the poor and dispossessed as well as the wealthy, it is all inclusive and it's principle figure pointedly refused to assume any Earthly Power, in direct opposition to Islam where the principle prophet was a powerful military and political actor in his own times.

3. Christianity and Islam have subtly different views on issues such as free will which further affect interpretation. Jesus was decidely oblique when it came to issues of salvation and the nature of God, the issue of exactly what is required in order to enter heaven remains one of stiff contention among Theologins because we have no authorative account of what Jesus taught.

Ultimately the enjuring images of Christianity are the fisherman, the shepard, the carpenter and the sacrifice on the cross, none of which are images of power. None of this makes Christianity better than Islam but it makes the two fundamentally different and I personnally believe it makes a direct comparison of their development innaplicable. Particually as Islam has already had several peaceful and enlightened periords.

If you want a comparison Judaism is a much better bet but that religion has not had the same political clout as Islam for a long time.

[Hax]

which is why i think islam will probably be all grown-up in about 500 years, maybe less if the war on terror is actually won

War on terror is very dubious. War itself is terrorizing, in a way, so what exactly are you doing? You are terrorizing terrorism?

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

Be that as it may (The Qu'ran being the infallible word of God as you state it), there is always room for interpretation. You can read the Surahs and verses and all of that metaphorically, instead of reading it literally. Saying that Christians can make judgements without going against their Holy text says is nonsense, for I am quite certain that Mohammed himself stated that the every man has it's own free will, but everyone has to take his own responsibility for it.

Wait now, to my opinion that differs a lot from Thomas de Aquino and his mandate of "Don't think, believe", as well as other Christian "scholars" after that time. Also, you can claim that Islam is more prone to violence than Christianity, but there is a saying;

"Christianity is the religion of Love, Islam is the religion of Knowledge".

[JR-]

To be honest I don't buy into this "Islam needs to grow up" line. There are several fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity.

1. The Koran is the infallible word of the God, the Bible is an anthology explicitely compiled by priests and Bishops, leaving aside the OT the NT is NOT an actual source of absolute authority, because there is no "Book of Jesus" i.e. no direct word from God. It's an important point and it means that Christians can make judgements without actually going against their Holy text as a whole, that's not possible with the Koran because it is absolute. This is not to say that Christians have not claimed Biblical infallibility but it manifestly is not built into the text itself.

2. The rise of the two religions was completely different, Christianity is a religion of the poor and dispossessed as well as the wealthy, it is all inclusive and it's principle figure pointedly refused to assume any Earthly Power, in direct opposition to Islam where the principle prophet was a powerful military and political actor in his own times.

3. Christianity and Islam have subtly different views on issues such as free will which further affect interpretation. Jesus was decidely oblique when it came to issues of salvation and the nature of God, the issue of exactly what is required in order to enter heaven remains one of stiff contention among Theologins because we have no authorative account of what Jesus taught.

Ultimately the enjuring images of Christianity are the fisherman, the shepard, the carpenter and the sacrifice on the cross, none of which are images of power. None of this makes Christianity better than Islam but it makes the two fundamentally different and I personnally believe it makes a direct comparison of their development innaplicable. Particually as Islam has already had several peaceful and enlightened periords.

If you want a comparison Judaism is a much better bet but that religion has not had the same political clout as Islam for a long time.

whatever. islam needs to get over that hump that brooks no dissent, justifies death for dissenters. in short it needs to chillout and be treated as less of an absolute by society, so that extremists that insist on punishing dissenters know they will receive no succor from society.

[JR-]

It seems that many here base their opinions on the b/s written or spoken in the local right wing / conservative news media. Sad really.

i don't think the right-wing (mainstream) press are any worse (on their impact on society) than the left; the former tells it like it is with lashing of hyperbole while the latter refuses to diagnose the condition and thus perpetuates the problem.