Beijing 2008, or: who else isn't watching?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I'm not here (or anywhere else) advocating the Turkish İttihad-Terakki/Republic regime's policies, and myself being an outright promoter of Kurdish rights and a pupil of language and literature thereof, your nagging is moot. You may proceed with bringing up the Armenian genocide maybe. Be my guest. My words are the same, no matter what person or community, maybe with the exception of not having ever been able to study any Armenian.

Eastern Turkestan had been a sovereign state with established government, armed forces etc. until being utterly invaded by the Communist 8th army in 1948, not without prior attempts, some successful, of invasion. Some resistance survived until 1949 but masses of people were forced to flee, the majority perishing crossing the Hindukush and Taklamakan, a few thousands managed to seek asylum in India and -later- Turkey.

I do not necessarily promote new independent states of "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan or Tibet myself. Principally I'm against ethnic-based political fragmentation and nation states. What concerns me are human rights (and those of other living things where applicable); in China, Turkey or elsewhere.
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[Louis VI the Fat]

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!

Free Tibet!

Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour.

[KukriKhan]

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!

Free Tibet!

Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour.

LOL. How can it be crypto-anything if it's a regime? Bravo, again, Louis .

[DemonArchangel]

I feel I am missing out!

I hereby violently protest the hosting of the games by Beijing! The Chinese regime is a crypto-fascist neo-com repressive machine!

Free Tibet!

Got to see what DA wil come up with for a retort about vile French behaviour.

What you say is correct. Buy one Tibet, get another free. As for vile French behavior, the French aren't vile, they're just Losers.

But East Turkestan? It was Xinjiang first, before that, it was the Xiyu. It's only East Turkestan if the Chinese let the locals get uppity.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Just read some more Demon. I'm well read enough on the subject. There was no Chinese population in Eastern Turkestan until the 19th century and Xinjiang means (AFAIK, though I might be wronged in this bit) newly conquered land.

The earliest inhabitants were the IE Tokharians. Then came Turkic and Mongolic populations along with some outstretched Iranian communities. It's the very land that the earliest sedentary Turkic community happened in the late VIIIth century, dispersing and assimilating the previous inhabitants.
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[DemonArchangel]

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Just read some more Demon. I'm well read enough on the subject. There was no Chinese population in Eastern Turkestan until the 19th century and Xinjiang means (AFAIK, though I might be wronged in this bit) newly conquered land.

The earliest inhabitants were the IE Tokharians. Then came Turkic and Mongolic populations along with some outstretched Iranian communities. It's the very land that the earliest sedentary Turkic community happened in the late VIIIth century, dispersing and assimilating the previous inhabitants.
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I've read PLENTY. The first time that the Tarim fell under Chinese control was the Han Dynasty, which more or less predates the existence of people you can call "Turkic." Control of the Xiyu is related to how strong China is relative to Mongolia or Transoxiana. Currently, China is the strongest, and it will stay that way for a long time. The Turkic peoples displaced the Persid oasis dwellers in the VIIIth century, so maybe the region should revert to control of a Sogdian speaking people.

[KukriKhan]

Is Sogdian speaking an Olympic Event now? Who got the gold?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Even if we suppose dear Demon's denial of the Eastern Turkestan case well based, my original points stands; and I shall refrain from dragging the thread on a sidetrack, agreeing to disagree.
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[DemonArchangel]

Is Sogdian speaking an Olympic Event now? Who got the gold?

Aw crap, can't remember it off the top of my head.

[Louis VI the Fat]

the French aren't vile, they're just Losers.

No, no. I am not furious at the insult. I am furious at being owned. Why am I owned? Because it dawns on me that I expected some evil Banquonian article about maniacal French genocidal actions in far flung lands. However, if Google is all you can come up with, and this is the crux, then France apparently is nowhere near important enough to the world for anybody to be even aware of our genocides. Hence, you owned me in a most sensitive area: inflated sense of importance. What's more, you simultanously expose and deflate it.

Sheer genius.


I would bow, were it not that this could be mistaken for subservience to Chinese cultural imperialism.

[Papewaio]

What is this France you speak of? Is it a district in Texas. ?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Paris is.
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[Papewaio]

That's because that Hilton is open everywhere...

[Banquo's Ghost]

No, no. I am not furious at the insult. I am furious at being owned. Why am I owned? Because it dawns on me that I expected some evil Banquonian article about maniacal French genocidal actions in far flung lands. However, if Google is all you can come up with, and this is the crux, then France apparently is nowhere near important enough to the world for anybody to be even aware of our genocides. Hence, you owned me in a most sensitive area: inflated sense of importance. What's more, you simultanously expose and deflate it.

Mon brave, if you suffer lamentations for the status of imperial has-beens you ought to try never-wases.

Nobody dredges up maniacal Irish genocides even when Munster crush Toulouse hearts into shattered nothingness.

[Jolt]

What you say is correct. Buy one Tibet, get another free. As for vile French behavior, the French aren't vile, they're just Losers.

But East Turkestan? It was Xinjiang first, before that, it was the Xiyu. It's only East Turkestan if the Chinese let the locals get uppity.

I never understood something about that losers thing. If anything, France was known for having the strongest army by World War I, and by being a Great Military Power.

Dark Ages:

-Let's start at the dawn of France itself. The Franks. What about a Merovingian expansion, where the
Frankish king "Charles the Great" managed to become Holy Roman Emperor, who conquered half of Italy, Catalonia, Bohemia, Poland, etc.? Were not those victories?

-What about the victories over the Arabs, which spared France (And most probably other parts of Europe) from falling to the Muslims?

Middle Ages:

-What about the Norman (French) conquest of England, actually initiating the first major dynastical house of England?

-What about the Norman conquests in Sicily and lower Italy?

-What about the victory at the HYW (I never understood why they say Jean d'Arc isn't French She was born, raised and died in France. Supposedly speaking to angels, doesn't make her un-french, nor does it question the might and valor of French soldiers.)?

Renaissance:

-What about the Thirty Years War, where French and Swedish armies sucessively defeated Imperial German armies, allowing for freedom of the Protestants German States. And making France an undisputed power in Europe for centuries?

-What about Louis XIV's expansion in France and surroundings, which ultimatly led to a formation of several coalitions to stop his expansion?

Revolutionary France:

-What about the First Coalition War? Where a war-torn revolutionary France, invaded by all the European powers, manages to defeat them all, and even advance into foreign territory?

Victorian Age:

-What about the victory over the Austrians which unfolded the Unification of Italy?

-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?

I could go on, but then again I suppose my point has been made, and heck, I'm not even French. I just don't get it why it spread about that the French never won a war...

[caravel]

I must admit that I was watching the women's marathon at about 2am one night because I couldn't sleep and there was nothing else on. It was shocking to see those stick thin defeminised running machines running on and on... for what exactly?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?

Are we supposed to take this seriously?
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[Mouzafphaerre]

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-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?

Are we supposed to take this seriously?

The French and the Ottomans were allies in the Crimean War.
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[DemonArchangel]

*snip*

Dude, I know. I was joking.

[JR-]

I never understood something about that losers thing. If anything, France was known for having the strongest army by World War I, and by being a Great Military Power.

maybe because of the automatic comparison with Great Britain, given the similar size, population, economy, military spending, etc......?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am sooo not entering a debate about French military history. No insult intended by anyone, none taken, and not a relevant discussion to this thread.

I'll suffice to say that, indeed, Jolt, if one is interested in the study of military history - defeats, victories, glory and atrocities - then French history is a veritable treasure trove indeed.

[Husar]

I am sooo not entering a debate about French military history. No insult intended by anyone, none taken, and not a relevant discussion to this thread.

I'll suffice to say that, indeed, Jolt, if one is interested in the study of military history - defeats, victories, glory and atrocities - then French history is a veritable treasure trove indeed.

Nationalist.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I never understood something about that losers thing. If anything, France was known for having the strongest army by World War I, and by being a Great Military Power.

Dark Ages:

-Let's start at the dawn of France itself. The Franks. What about a Merovingian expansion, where the
Frankish king "Charles the Great" managed to become Holy Roman Emperor, who conquered half of Italy, Catalonia, Bohemia, Poland, etc.? Were not those victories?

-What about the victories over the Arabs, which spared France (And most probably other parts of Europe) from falling to the Muslims?

Middle Ages:

-What about the Norman (French) conquest of England, actually initiating the first major dynastical house of England?

-What about the Norman conquests in Sicily and lower Italy?

-What about the victory at the HYW (I never understood why they say Jean d'Arc isn't French She was born, raised and died in France. Supposedly speaking to angels, doesn't make her un-french, nor does it question the might and valor of French soldiers.)?

Renaissance:

-What about the Thirty Years War, where French and Swedish armies sucessively defeated Imperial German armies, allowing for freedom of the Protestants German States. And making France an undisputed power in Europe for centuries?

-What about Louis XIV's expansion in France and surroundings, which ultimatly led to a formation of several coalitions to stop his expansion?

Revolutionary France:

-What about the First Coalition War? Where a war-torn revolutionary France, invaded by all the European powers, manages to defeat them all, and even advance into foreign territory?

Victorian Age:

-What about the victory over the Austrians which unfolded the Unification of Italy?

-What about the victories over the Ottomans in the Crimean Wars?

I could go on, but then again I suppose my point has been made, and heck, I'm not even French. I just don't get it why it spread about that the French never won a war...

Well.... We did have to save the French during World War 2!

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think that this thread has died a natural death if we are reduced to cheap shots at France.

Thank you for all constructive contributions.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

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I do not necessarily promote new independent states of "Inner" Mongolia, Eastern Turkestan or Tibet myself. Principally I'm against ethnic-based political fragmentation and nation states. What concerns me are human rights (and those of other living things where applicable); in China, Turkey or elsewhere.
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Isn't Mongolia small enough already?