The Magnaura

[Warmaster Horus]

Very well. I hereby break my oath to Tagaris.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: no more swearing for the next 5 turns, then...

As for the rest of what you said, I'll just sum it up: I'm a no-good cheat, because I didn't hesitate to act like one of the dregs of society to accomplish what I had to do.
Tagaris, I'm just learning how to be a politician. You pre-emptively tried to avoid punishment. No one else would do it, so I had to get back in. Somehow.
If there's one lesson learned here, I think it's "the end justify the means".

[Privateerkev]

Are we going to take away land every time an edict is broken? If so, we will be pretty busy.

Manouelitis, you took it upon yourself to punish Methodios. You didn't work through us. And the fact that you have kept the land that you stole from Methodios makes your actions look... opportunist...

As for everyone who is cheering you on, I never saw those same people demand Rhodes back from Hypatios when he exterminated thousands of people.

It seems to me that people who are using the excuse of Methodios's sacking of Alexandria are going after him for personal reasons.

This body sat on it's hands when the Caesar broke the "rules." And now, when Methodios breaks an edict, the Senate wakes from it's slumber and bangs it's gavel in the name of justice.

Even Hypatios got off easier than this and his crime was far worse.

I am very much for punishing people who sack and exterminate. And I am very much for punishing people who break edicts and rules. But we need to be consistent and not let our personal feelings for the law breaker color our better judgment.

[Ferret]

Are we going to take away land every time an edict is broken? If so, we will be pretty busy.

Manouelitis, you took it upon yourself to punish Methodios. You didn't work through us. And the fact that you have kept the land that you stole from Methodios makes your actions look... opportunist...

As for everyone who is cheering you on, I never saw those same people demand Rhodes back from Hypatios when he exterminated thousands of people.

It seems to me that people who are using the excuse of Methodios's sacking of Alexandria are going after him for personal reasons.

This body sat on it's hands when the Caesar broke the "rules." And now, when Methodios breaks an edict, the Senate wakes from it's slumber and bangs it's gavel in the name of justice.

Even Hypatios got off easier than this and his crime was far worse.

I am very much for punishing people who sack and exterminate. And I am very much for punishing people who break edicts and rules. But we need to be consistent and not let our personal feelings for the law breaker color our better judgment.

I hardly got off easier, Tagaris is losing a piece of land miles away from where his interest lies, he still has ownership of another piece of land and still is part of his house. A house is worth more than land, especially if you have two pieces of land already. Anyway Manouelitis needs the land, Tagaris doesn't, and what Manouelitis did was within the law, why should he have to give it back?

[_Tristan_]

Scopia may be far away from Egypt but it still has a lot of worth in my eyes simply bacause it was bequeathed to me by Kosmas... And I have to disagree with you, how can a House be more important than land ? Without land, there is no hope of ever seeing one's House grow... A landless House is worthless... It will never field an army to defend its part of the Empire, it will not be able to recruit new members...

If I hear you well you would want to restrict Senators to the right of holding only a single province, I doubt those those concerned would be willing to surrender them to landless senators without any counterpart in the form of an oath. Or is it just me that you want to bar from holding two provinces ?

And I will concur with our megas : you got off easier... You cut a bloody swath through Anatolia and all you had to suffer was your Lord and vassals turning their backs on you... I might add that it was not long before you found a comforting shoulder, by the way... So tell me how harsh this was for a punishment ?

Finally, who are you to say who needs land and who don't ? And who are you to say that Manouelitis is more deserving of land than say Aristenos over there ?

The difference I see is that Aristenos will await an opportunity to claim his land honourably, while the other disnonorably created an opportunity where there was none...

[ULC]

"I agree with the assertion the Basileus should decide when land is in dispute. Deciding between House members or even other Houses creates a biased view on whom should acquire the settlement in dispute. I will raise a point though, Nikiphorus, that you are in rather tenuous arguing position. It was taken underhanded, something unto itself goes against the very House charter you said Methodios broke, so be careful of hypocrisy. Second, you have no House to belong to, and as such lack real support. Third, your claims on Scopia are weak, if only because you are so far from it. Fourth, you yourself have set a precedence for "theft". To me, your words are laden with ill logic and little substance when you say we must take a stand now. If we are to take stand on doing what is right, we should do it through just process and not set a standard for vigilantism or underhanded tactics, as it leaves us no better then whom we are prosecuting. Leave that to the men who belong to this "Organization".

[flyd]

So let the Basileus rule on this, but one thing is clear, we need better enforcement of Senate Edicts, and more importantly, punishment stated in advance, especially in case of this contentious settlement capture issue. I would think a charter amendment at the next Senate session that says something like this would be appropriate:

If a settlement is captured in violation of any valid Edict or Charter section, the settlement will automatically be forfeited to the Basileus. If it was the Basileus who performed the violation, the fate of the settlement may be decided by a normal Edict at the next Senate session.

This way, people will know the consequences, and it will be a good deterrent against violating the will of the Senate, at least when it came to settlements. It's still up the Senators to gain support to pass an anti-sacking Edict, or prevent the capture of certain cities, or whatever other legislation would be applicable to settlements, but once they do, it will mean something.

[_Tristan_]

I, for one, would be in favour of such a legislation to be proposed... Edicts that run the risk of being broken should state penalties from the start like any decent text of law. This way, law-breakers and enforcers alike will know what to expect.

I am glad to see that some apples have fallen farther from the tree in the Komnenoi family... (bowing to Isaakios Komnenos)

[_Tristan_]

punishment. No one else would do it, so I had to get back in. Somehow.

Not just somehow, but anyhow... That's the crux of the matter.

As for punishment, I'm already serving an harsher penance than either of our law-breaking fellow Senators have served for even graver crimes. And waiting on whatever our Basileus decides should be my fate.

Don't you think it should be Him who should pass judgment on my actions ? Don't you think you have usurped his authority in this ?

Do not try to justify your actions behind pretenses of acting "for the good of society"... You're not fooling anyone.

You saw an opportunity to gain some land without a fight and you snatched it.

So please stop trying to convince us that you did it for justice's sake...

You're not a judge, Manouelitis... Not even a vigilante, you're a thief.

I appeal to our Basileus to right the wrong committed against me and my House. I may deserve to be punished for what I did in Alexandria but I feel it is only within your powers to pass judgment on my actions and set whatever punishment you deem necessary.

If we let vigilantism have its way then we're one step closer to civil disorder.

[Privateerkev]

Alright, I don't know what is going on with Scopia. And I don't really care. But I need to know who owns the province when I build things there.

If you two are going to insist on dragging other people into this, I ask that neither of you drag me into this. I have an Empire to run and I don't want to be sitting on my hands while you two have a staring contest.

Therefore, as a favor to me, I am asking that both of you set Scopia's build queue to "Megas's discretion."

This will allow me to go forward with governance while this is worked out. There are no taxes to set and I won't move the one unit garrison so the other stuff doesn't need to be figured out. But the build queue needs to be left open to me by both of you or the settlement will sit idle.

[_Tristan_]

What our Megas said a few minutes earlier got me thinking.

If Manouelitis truly acted in good faith, though I'll have difficulty accepting that seeing how devious his acts appear, but let's assume it was the case for the sake of the argument...

If such was the case, as it seems he doesn't want to give back what I consider to be my property, why doesn't he release ownership of Scopia into the hands of our Basileos.

This would achieve his self-proclaimed goal of punishing me and at the same time, it would somewhat clear his name of that powerful reek of opportunism...

I, for one, for want of a better solution to resolve that conflict, would accept this solution.

What say you, Manouelitis ?

[Warmaster Horus]

Why not?
If the Basileus agrees to it, then it will be done.
Let us wait for the Basileus first, though.

[Warmaster Horus]

If the Basileus asks me to return Scopia, then I will do it. But I had every right to take it, and you had no right to demand it. You were in House Korakas, you broke a public law and a rule of that House's Charter. For the public law, I can do nothing. But as far as the House goes...

Makedonios, I agree it's opportunistic. But we have to start enforcing these laws, or the country will go mad! If all one has to expect is a slap for being a law breaker, then tomorrow I'll go and kill Ioannis Kalameteros!
People have to see that illegal acts will not be tolerated. It may look like I'm being opportunistic, and blowing things out of proportion. But if don't we start enforcing the laws properly, then one day you will all be thinking something along the lines of: "If only we'd listened to Manouelitis..."