Original vs. Warlord

[Milo]

I've played the original version of Shogun far too much, my brothers have the Warlord Edition so I thought I'd buy it and see if we could work out an on-line battle or two over the winter.

Warlord seems much easier than the original but what's really killing me is the random appearance of the bad guy's reinforcements and the exhausting process of running all over the map playing whack-a-mole.

Is that the way it's going to be?? I'm going back to the old game if it is...

Matt

[Wasp]

I've mostly played Warlord (well, Gold actually). While the problems you name are present, it also has the other campaigns and the new units.

[Wilbo]

I prefer the original, version 1.12. I find 1.12 a little simpler, with fewer units blurring the lines between the rock-paper-scissors formula and lacking the unrealistic Kensai and Battlefield ninja units. Since the Sengoku Jidai campaign is my favourite period the lack of others does not bother me. I also don't enjoy the Mongol campaign.

Mind you, if you're bored with 1.12, I would still heartily recommend Warlord Edition. I remember that the Archers are different powers between the two versions, though I can't remember which features the more powerful.

[ReluctantSamurai]

There's a patch to fix the enemy reinforcement issue and you can edit unit stats to meet vanilla STW specs. I'm not at my own 'puter at the moment, but I'm sure someone here will chip in the needed info before I get home. Puzz3D is usually a gold mine for that sort of thing.......

If not, I'll make sure to post up where you can get the appropriate data.

[Milo]

I think I remember something about a patch to fix the reinforcement issue but Google just gives me dead links.

Thanks for the info all! I'll keep playing but keep some forces in reserve for the whack-a-mole part.

Matt

[caravel]

The original STW was better balanced than the MI/WE version. In this latter version some new units were added and these units imbalance the game somewhat. Some other stats were also changed.

[Martok]

IMHO, the only real improvement that the Warlords Edition has over the original red box 1.12 version -- and I realize that at least a few people here would dispute even that -- is that building costs and build times have been halved, which obviously helps to quicken the game's pace.

That aside, however, I would still favor the original STW over WE. As Wilbo and Cynwulf already pointed out, it's better balanced. While units like Kensai and Battlefield Ninja are undeniably fun to play with, they really knock the rock-paper-scissors system off-kilter (to say nothing of being unhistorical "fantasy" units).

[Wasp]

I think Martok is right about the 'fantasy units' - I like to toy with them now or then, but never use them seriously as a part of my army (well, the kensai might be stationed on a bridge). I've used the kensai as a roleplaying kind of character before.

However, those units have such a high building requirement that I've rarely seen the AI train more than one of them. And even that was only in the 1580 scenario, where the necessary infrastructure is already mostly developed.

Still, if someone could post the 'correct' stats, that'd be useful

[Puzz3D]

I've played the original version of Shogun far too much, my brothers have the Warlord Edition so I thought I'd buy it and see if we could work out an on-line battle or two over the winter.

Warlord seems much easier than the original but what's really killing me is the random appearance of the bad guy's reinforcements and the exhausting process of running all over the map playing whack-a-mole.

Is that the way it's going to be?? I'm going back to the old game if it is...

Matt

That reinforcement problem is fixed by the ShogunWv1.02 Euro.exe patch. Unfortunately, that patch changes the two unit stats files, troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt, to something very different from original STW. If you want to play with something closer to original STW unit stats read this thread: Fixing STW/MI v1.02.

[Wilbo]

Thanks Puzz3D, that's a good link. I'll swap my text files over tonight, to get WE 1.02 to STW v1.12 statistics.

It's interesting what you wrote about Naginata Cavalry:

The NC is easiest to solve because the problem is that it's a WM stat unit with higher mobility and armor that only costs 450 koku.

I never noticed that Naginata Cavalry were a problem, mainly because I felt they were a realistic idea and they proved effective on the battlefield. The fact that they're the equivalent of mounted Warrior Monks is a little terrifying. I'll avoid using them in future.

[Togakure]

Thanks Puzz3D, that's a good link. I'll swap my text files over tonight, to get WE 1.02 to STW v1.12 statistics.

It's interesting what you wrote about Naginata Cavalry:

I never noticed that Naginata Cavalry were a problem, mainly because I felt they were a realistic idea and they proved effective on the battlefield. The fact that they're the equivalent of mounted Warrior Monks is a little terrifying. I'll avoid using them in future.

1.02 Monk Stat:

Charge: 4
Attack: 5
Defense: 2
Armor: 1
Morale: 8
Cost: 500 (550 MP)

1.02 Nag Cav Stat:

Charge: 11
Attack: 4
Defense:1
Armor: 4
Morale: 8
Cost: 450

I'm not sure where Puzz copied that troopstats.txt file from, but I'm looking at my WE 1.02 file right now, and the stats for NC are as above, not as posted in the linked post Puzz gave. I think Puzz expresses his frustration over the 1.02 stat fiasco a bit strongly sometimes. The NC is not a monk on a horse for 450 koku. Close, but not quite. His point is valid, just a bit exaggerated in my opinion.

In Single Player, the NC effectiveness is countered a bit by the cost in time and koku to build the infrastructure required to train them (Fortress, Spear Dojo, Famous Horse Dojo). That hasn't been taken into account here. By the time you can build them, there are plenty of YC around and they counter NC effectively. YC trained at a location with an infrastructure that can build NC have +1 honor (+1 attack, +1 defense, and +2 morale)--when you factor in the spear bonus, they do very well against NC trained on the same level. NC are still decimated by any YS and can be defeated by Yari Ashigaru as well, provided the ashis have morale support and aren't charged from the flank or rear.

The NC is more powerful than it should be in 1.02. They were used extensively in STW 1.02 MP, particularly for their high morale, and were the most common Taisho unit by far. You didn't often see armies from any but the best players without four of them in it (the limit with a 4 max rule in effect). Their effectiveness caused YC to be used much less, YC morale being weak at a base of 4, making them flighty. Still, YC could beat NC in a head-to-head fight.

1.02 Yari Cav Stat:

Charge: 15
Attack: 1
Defense:2
Armor: 3
Morale: 4
Cost: 500

[Puzz3D]

I'm not sure where Puzz copied that troopstats.txt file from, but I'm looking at my WE 1.02 file right now, and the stats for NC are as above, not as posted in the linked post Puzz gave. I think Puzz expresses his frustration over the 1.02 stat fiasco a bit strongly sometimes. The NC is not a monk on a horse for 450 koku. Close, but not quite. His point is valid, just a bit exaggerated in my opinion.

STW/MI v1.02 is not the standard. The resultant gameplay of that stat is inferior to STW v1.12, and evidence supporting that opinion is that participation dropped from over 100 players in the multiplayer foyer during STW v1.12 to less than 50 during STW/MI v1.02. Over half of the players left.

The troopstats I posted is STW/MI v1.00 modified back to STW v1.12. The nag cav is unmodified because it didn't exist in STW v1.12, and I've made suggestions for changes to its stat to make it fit in with the STW v1.12 stats. In STW/MI v1.00, the naginata cav had 4 charge, 5 attack and 2 defense just like warrior monks; same morale, higher armor and lower cost. The version of the game that Milo is using happens to be the unpatched STW/MI v1.00 because he has the random reenforcment problem.

The people who made the STW/MI v1.02 stat wanted to change the gameplay of STW v1.12. As I recall, I was the only one on that team who wanted to return the STW/MI gameplay to STW v1.12 gameplay, and I had many arguments with people on that team over this issue. In fact, the mandate from the player community to the v1.02 beta team was to return the gameplay to that of STW v1.12; a mandate that was ignored by most of the v1.02 beta team members.

[Wilbo]

Hang on, what team? Were you a member of Creative Assembly? Or do you mean the MI beta testing team?

[clanleader]

hey i'm a new player and need some help i don't know where to go but i was wondering if anyone can help i'm on hard mode and keep losing cause the guisha's kill my dynimo my ningas can't kill them my question is: " does anyone know how to beat them or kill them my one ninja was a 5 kill and his chances were only 7% and he failed "

[Wilbo]

Perhaps you could kill their Geisha with one of your own?

[Wasp]

hey i'm a new player and need some help i don't know where to go but i was wondering if anyone can help i'm on hard mode and keep losing cause the guisha's kill my dynimo my ningas can't kill them my question is: " does anyone know how to beat them or kill them my one ninja was a 5 kill and his chances were only 7% and he failed "

Either use a Geisha yourself - that'll kill both of the units - or continue with sending in as many ninja's as you can.

[TosaInu]

Hello Milo,

You can find patches here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?catid=13

[ReluctantSamurai]

"does anyone know how to beat them or kill them "

How to beat them: you need at least 2 lvl 5 ninjas. One will probably fail, though that depends on the lvl of the geisha. Flood the province where she is trying to do the assassination with shinobi, and that will hold her off until your ninjas get there. Then......find the lair that's breeding them, send an army there, and raze the place to the ground!

Now if your like me and don't care for geisha, or don't use them yourself, then alter the building preference .txt so that noone builds geisha houses. That's what I do. Now the campaign is won or lost on the battlefield, not by some cheesy fantasy unit.

[old]

hello, the reinforcement that came with later versions really sux,
i tried the link patch but when i was to install it, it turns out it require the dvd which i gave away when i relocated to another country.

is there a way to get back the old reinforcement system without dvd ?

[ReluctantSamurai]

Not that I know of Doesn't mean there isn't a fix.....