The politics of games.

[Kekvit Irae]

I propose that we should have a Backroom-style sub-forum for The Arena, where gamers can discuss issues like DRMs, how Games Workshop is killing small African children with crudely-made overpriced miniatures, and various other topics. The Arena is about the games themselves, not complaining about how said company's business model is ruining our fun.
Using this method, we can filter out the threads that talk about the companies from the threads that talk about gameplay, and still give posters a place to talk about such things without referring them to the actual Backroom.

Thoughts?

[pevergreen]

I agree.

Having them apart not only helps people keep their thoughts in each respective area, but makes it a lot neater!

[CountArach]

A Backroom Arena sounds good to me.

Oh, and Games Workshop, I'm coming after you!

[Warmaster Horus]

Agree. Not that I'll post often, but I think it'll be easier for all of us (the actual game topic will be in the Arena, whilst controversial discussion in its backroom; thus we should know where to post what kind of message.)

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think you are likely to create a trend towards multiple "backroom" type fora. This brings extra work and increases the chance of bad behaviour spilling out across the org.

It's perfectly possible for people to come to the Backroom to discuss such topics - we can even create a special sticky thread, if necessary. Access to the Backroom is regulated, so posters consistently stepping out of line can be controlled. Because of the nature of backroom topics, we are stricter than most fora. I suspect that if we had proliferating "backroom" versions of other fora, standards would vary and members would become confused - or play the system.

Come to the Anarchy of Hatred and Dissent for your gaming politics. It's nice and warm, and we have pitchforks.

[TinCow]

If that happens, I would greatly ecourage a loosening of the rules on piracy discussion in that forum. Piracy, copyright, and DRM are the major topics that this forum would cover and a bit more freedom would be required to allow the discussions to blossom properly. IMO the only things that should be blocked in such a forum would be instructions on how to commit piracy. General arguments about whether it is right or wrong, legal or illegal, etc. need to be allowed. If you're not willing to open up the discussion like that, I wouldn't bother with an Arena Backroom.

[Caius]

If that happens, I would greatly ecourage a loosening of the rules on piracy discussion in that forum. Piracy, copyright, and DRM are the major topics that this forum would cover and a bit more freedom would be required to allow the discussions to blossom properly. IMO the only things that should be blocked in such a forum would be instructions on how to commit piracy. General arguments about whether it is right or wrong, legal or illegal, etc. need to be allowed. If you're not willing to open up the discussion like that, I wouldn't bother with an Arena Backroom.

I agree with TinCow there. We should have a "special FAQ" for the new backroom fora (if its going to be used), whcih states to discuss about piracy without going too far.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I disagree with Kekvit's proposal.
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[TosaInu]

Hello,

There were some discussions already about topics such as copyprotection and controversial steps in the industry. Those were in different TW gameforums. I think the Arena had or could have such as well, but ask frogbeastegg about that.

Piracy, assistance to avoid DRM (but not cleaning up after the game is uninstalled) and high running emotions is not going to become content anywhere.

The example about African children sounds like a Backroom topic. It's possible to give it a pre-fix (game) to make it easier to locate. It has however, not much to do with games anymore when it is about that. It's the question of exploiting people.

[Kekvit Irae]

I'm just tired of all the threads The Arena gets about game companies and their practices. The Arena is supposed to be about games. I would rather see a thousand posts complaining about the gameplay of a favorite game than one more post of someone getting on their knees and performing sexual favors on StarDock's proverbial male genitalia.
As noted in the thread title, at what point in time did gaming turn into politics? I remember a time when gaming was something you do for fun, regardless of what the company did.

[Husar]

I guess that was because what the companies did din't matter back then but nowadays they start bothering people with what they do., I can understand your concern but I can also understand why people are annoyed by certain copy protection schemes. Unfortunately for you you're an AM and have to read those threads while I can just skip them.

[frogbeastegg]

Mob of quotes first:

There were some discussions already about topics such as copyprotection and controversial steps in the industry. Those were in different TW gameforums. I think the Arena had or could have such as well, but ask frogbeastegg about that.

Yes, we have had such discussions before. There was that huge secuROM topic in the citadel when Kingdoms came out, for one. We've had multiple starforce threads in the arena, all sorts.

If that happens, I would greatly ecourage a loosening of the rules on piracy discussion in that forum. Piracy, copyright, and DRM are the major topics that this forum would cover

As I have understood it (as the nutcase behind said tight arena rules) we cannot further open up discussion of matters like piracy, no CD cracks etc without leaving the org itself vulnerable to claims that we support it. That could leave us with no org. In the time I have been here we have had a few instances where an official stick has been shaken at us because of such discussions. We cannot loosen the rules and we cannot give such discussion any sort of official sanction.

I would rather see a thousand posts complaining about the gameplay of a favorite game than one more post of someone getting on their knees and performing sexual favors on StarDock's proverbial male genitalia.

You propose dropping the moderation of this one onto the backroom team? Otherwise it will be the same two victims volunteers reading the posts. We'd just have to do more clicking.



Now some actual amphibian thoughts:

Do I like the DRM etc posts? No. I'm heartily sick of the subject. I became so long ago, and I'm a frog who passes over buying PC games if they contain certain types of DRM.

IMO this proposed forum would end up mostly empty except for a small collection of topics blasting EA, cheering for Stardock, and picking over the odd event like Stardock's gamer's bill of rights. Am I the only one who finds the idea unappealing? A forum made - in essence - for people to complain in.

I also believe it's a phase. Mass Effect, Spore, Red Alert and that bill of rights have brought the topic into the spotlight. It will fade back again in time. I've seen other hot topics come and ago over the years. It's currently a hot topic on the other two gaming forums I look at.

Games Workshop? Nothing to do with the arena, even with a speculative backroom. Child slavery isn't our territory, and that would be the real subject. Games would only be a sideline.

I also don't understand what is so undesirable about putting the topics into the existing backroom.



In the past I have shunted topics over to the existing backroom leaving a redirect in the arena. Because of the slower turnover in the arena that redirect remains on the front page for a week or two, meaning people have plenty of time to see it and follow it. This can still be done. We don't need a seperate forum for it.

The difficulty, the thing keeping my itchy finger away from the move button, is where to draw the line. Which topic stays and which moves? Which posts are removed from topics, which are left untouched?

I can play draconian froggy instigate a lightly updated version of my original rule:
Any topic discussing DRM does not belong in the arena and will move to the backroom.
Any topic on subjects such as the bill of rights does not belong in the arena and will move to the backroom.
Any game's topic containing multiple posts on DRM will get a nudge for being off-topic.
It is fair for any nasty DRM to be mentioned a handful of times so potential buyers are warned.
It is not fair to complain about how bad said DRM is. Conversely, it is not fair to post about how good a certain DRM or lack thereof is. DRM discussion is DRM discussion.

Under that set of rules the spore/amazon topic goes, the bill of rights topic goes, multiple threads get a "DRM is not the topic" mod post, and of course a topic is created informing people of the change in topic ... and is anyone actually happy? Does it improve the arena? Because that's the second thing holding back action. Until now I had no idea I was alone in wishing people would get back to talking about games.

Alternately we take a different view. Maybe the discussions we are seeing now are what people want to see in the arena, and the arena should adapt to house them. That doesn't necessarily require a seperate sub-forum. For example, all DRM related discussion could be required to stay in a seperate thread, so we'd have the bioshock gameplay thread and the bioshock DRM thread.

What do people want to see?



It would be a good idea to set up a link in the arena so people are aware the matter is being discussed. I only found out when someone PMed me a link this evening :makes link:

[Kekvit Irae]

You propose dropping the moderation of this one onto the backroom team?

No, I propose the creation of a new sub-forum inside the Arena for such discussion, as noted in the very first line of my first post.

Games Workshop? Nothing to do with the arena, even with a speculative backroom. Child slavery isn't our territory, and that would be the real subject. Games would only be a sideline.

First, it is my understanding that Games Workshop is Arena material.

The Arena
A place to discuss any games not from the Total War series; also for game reviews, consoles and console games, etc.

Bolded the good parts. Unless the description suddenly changed to PC and console games only, traditional games are allowed.
Second, the child slavery part was a joke, to place emphasis on the "OMG, _____ is an evil overlord!" syndrome currently residing in the Arena now. I would have put in EA instead of GW, but I'm getting tired of all the EA bashing going on lately.

[Martok]

For what it's worth -- and speaking only for myself -- I started those two topics (the Amazon protest and the Gamers Bill of Rights) in the Arena simply because it seemed the most appropriate place. These are issues that affect gamers, after all, so where else to better discuss them? Granted, there's a bit of overlap with the Backroom when they have threads discussing the RIAA and whatnot, but that's more the exception rather than the rule.

Not that I want the Arena to be forever dominated by such discussions, of course -- I agree its primary purpose is still to discuss actual games. That's how it should be. Still, I don't see the harm in actually discussing issues that matter to gamers from time to time. (It's not like the Frontroom is all sunshine and lollipops, just for another example.) Besides which, I concur with froggy that these are simply hot topics at the moment, and will eventually fade in time.

[Zenicetus]

As noted in the thread title, at what point in time did gaming turn into politics? I remember a time when gaming was something you do for fun, regardless of what the company did.

I don't remember a time like that, and I go back to being one of the SysOps on Compuserve's flight sim forums, in the dial-up BBS days before the Web was around.

I remember plenty of flames directed at game companies due to missed deadlines, bad design, bugs on release, bizarre early copy protection efforts (remember code lookup wheels?) or poor aftermarket support. You shoulda been around in the Flight of the Intruder - Falcon 3.0 days... whew! Talk about a gripe-fest.

People are going to have opinions about the quality of games they play. I don't see how you can draw bright lines around DRM as if it's an inherently different aspect of game quality aside from number of bugs, install hassles, aftermarket support, etc. It's the nature of the product you're dealing with.

As someone who posts here, I don't think it's helpful when DRM threads become huge, but they're easy enough to bypass. And I think it's important to have the freedom to say, when recommending a game for example: "XXX is a great RPG, I enjoyed it, but be advised it does contain YYYY DRM, just so 'ya know." That's information which is increasingly important to many of us PC gamers, and I've written a few posts like that. I wouldn't want to have to mention that in a separate sub-forum ghetto outside the thread, where it probably wouldn't even be noticed by the person I was responding to.

Another reason I don't like the idea is that I just don't like fractured forums in general. There are already 30+ main forums on the index page, and scads of sub-fora, almost all of which I never visit because it's too tedious to navigate. Every time you break out a topic into another area, you're forcing an additional page load on the user, and forcing a new mental scan of index topics. Many of us just don't have the time to check a dozen different fora, so we just hit a few of the main areas we're interested in and blow off the rest. If I ran this place, the first thing I'd do is a major consolidation to reduce the sprawl, instead of going the other direction with yet another sub-forum. But that's just me.

[The_Doctor]

Maybe you should give it a week or two, and then see if the problem is still there and if it is then work something out.

You propose dropping the moderation of this one onto the backroom team? Otherwise it will be the same two victims volunteers reading the posts. We'd just have to do more clicking.

child slavery

[Veho Nex]

Yeah I'd say wait for a while before adding it. From what I've seen the arena only has its politcal moments once in a while. Other than that there are plenty of true arena threads. But adding a prefix to the name might be an easier fix. Like in the backroom or tw sections.

[Ferret]

The Arena isn't exactly one of the most active forums anyway, if you removed all the threads about DRM and other things that would go into the backroom of it, the Arena would become even more desolate. There are little enough threads with new posts being added to keep up with the ones you want to read and ignore the ones you don't want, the titles are apt enough to help you decide whether you want to read it.

So, in short, I agree with Mouza.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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In good old (or utopian future) times, when the enjoyment to be had from a game had little or none to do with bad company policies, discussing games would be solely about gameplay. But such policies as releasing games unfinished, not patching them properly and tucking malware under the sexy label of DRM up people's arse directly affect the gameplay, or in severe cases lack thereof.

Segregating the so called politics will make the Arena, potentially, a haven for "OMGF ROXORZZZ1010" crowd, the clueless masses again so sexy called "casual gamers" and degrade the quality.

I wouldn't like having to split my posts into two, to post in two different sections something that has essentially a single subject with seemingly multiple yet intertwined facets; or see moderator intrusion coming in to break it apart or altogether remove/lock it when something jurisdically out of place slips.
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[TinCow]

As I have understood it (as the nutcase behind said tight arena rules) we cannot further open up discussion of matters like piracy, no CD cracks etc without leaving the org itself vulnerable to claims that we support it. That could leave us with no org. In the time I have been here we have had a few instances where an official stick has been shaken at us because of such discussions. We cannot loosen the rules and we cannot give such discussion any sort of official sanction.

Well, from a legal perspective I don't think that's quite right. I am not aware of any US or EU laws which criminalize the discussion of copyright and DRM issues. Certainly if a website contains instructions on how to commit a copyright violation or actually materially aids in doing so, that would be cause for concern. I admit my knowledge of EU IP law is far below my knowledge of US IP law, but I would highly doubt that a simple discussion on the benefits and harms of copyright piracy is criminal in any manner, even in the most severe EU jurisdiction. Under current Org policy, I am barred from posting a paper I wrote on the benefits and detriments of copyright/patent law based on a theoretical technological innovation, yet I wrote this paper in law school.

When it comes down to it, whoever owns the Org (Tosa?) has the final say in something like this because any legal consequences would rest mainly on his shoulders. However, I honestly do not see how simply discussing piracy (without instructions on how to commit it) can be considered a criminal action in any relevant jurisdiction.

On a personal level, the problem with moving these discussions to the Backroom is that they become... er... part of the Backroom. That place scares me, and I only tend to post there when doing so in a neutral manner. I am not likely to post in any game/DRM related threads in there simply because they are going to be swarmed by the vicious hordes of the Backroom.

[Navaros]

I strongly disagree with the original post.

If Publishers are going to put malware-like DRM/'copy protection'/pay-full-price-to-rent-this-game-via-limited-installs on the discs that games ship on and/or in the legal downloads of their games, then that goes hand in hand with the game itself. The game and the malware-like DRM/'copy protection'/pay-full-price-to-rent-this-game-via-limited-installs are inseparably linked, and therefore it is reasonable that so should be the discussions.

Consumers and innocent gamers who might not know this, have a right to know this. It is very helpful to them to be alerted by other more informed gamers via reading threads in the main Arena forum so that they do not get ripped off by inadvertently purchasing games with malware-like DRM/'copy protection'/pay-full-price-to-rent-this-game-via-limited-installs. Discussions like this should not be hidden or shuffled off to a backroom sub-forum. I know many posters were glad when I warned them about Starforce & Securom infestations on various games in the Arena and thus they avoided getting ripped off directly as a result of having seen those warnings posted in the Arena.

The Arena forum is already ideal as is. A free and open discussion about games the malware-like DRM/'copy protection'/pay-full-price-to-rent-this-game-via-limited-installs that is inseparably linked with them. Censoring the forum via restricting this discussion of the truth, and/or shipping the ugly truth of these things off into sub-forums would be counter-productive; and also that would be taking power away from gamers and doing exactly what the perpetuators of malware-like DRM/'copy protection'/pay-full-price-to-rent-this-game-via-limited-installs want --- minimize consumer awareness of their shady, immoral, probably illegal, 'business tactics.'

Best thing to do is leave the Arena exactly as it is now.

[Xiahou]

I also don't understand what is so undesirable about putting the topics into the existing backroom.

Sounds good. Obviously DRM is part of games, but when the discussion is all about DRM and not about the games it's probably best moved to the backroom.

Yes, it's not a clear cut distinction- but that's why we have our esteemed moderators.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Consumers and innocent gamers who might not know this, have a right to know this. It is very helpful to them to be alerted by other more informed gamers via reading threads in the main Arena forum so that they do not get ripped off by inadvertently purchasing games with malware-like DRM/'copy protection'/pay-full-price-to-rent-this-game-via-limited-installs. Discussions like this should not be hidden or shuffled off to a backroom sub-forum.

Thanks for pointing out this most important side of the affair, which I have neglected to think about.
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[Crazed Rabbit]

I must disagree with the OP, and agree with Mouza, Zenicetus, and Navaros.

The DRM and associated policies are an intertwined part of games. They are an offshoot of discussion about games, not a discussion of politics that is related to games, in my opinion.

EA's business model does affect the games we enjoy, and I think, seeing how the Arena is for discussion of games, it is very appropriate for that forum.

Even then, we don't see a lot of that sort of discussion, and to cordon it off in a separate forum would make that sub forum very sparse (like the frontroom science forum).

CR

[Papewaio]

KISS.

Keep It Simple Stupid.

The Arena
A place to discuss any games not from the Total War series; also for game reviews, consoles and console games, etc.

Backroom
Talk with other members of the community about anything, including civil discussions about politics and religion.

The Org is a forum for Gamers. In particular those who have at some point some association with the Total War Series, be that fan, single-player, online, patch obsessed, vendor, designer, programmer, modder, moderator, or Total War Widow.

Both the Arena and the Backroom are parts of The Org I hold dear. (Anyone guess why I hold the Arena dear?).

Both of these are in the Miscellaneous or Off Topic section of the forum. These are for the non-Total War specific discussions in general. However any political clad content be it Total War or not is for the Backroom.

So if there is discussion in the Arena that is more political in nature by all means catapult it into the Backroom it is political-lite compared with the rest of the subjects. Where in the Arena it might be bringing the mood down and bogging up the forum with boredom, in the Backroom it will actually lighten the mood and get chewed on happily. Keep the meat for the Arena and give us the bone to chew on.

In short give the politics to the Backroom and make both forums happier.

After all the Backroomers are gamers too.

[Banquo's Ghost]

On a personal level, the problem with moving these discussions to the Backroom is that they become... er... part of the Backroom. That place scares me, and I only tend to post there when doing so in a neutral manner. I am not likely to post in any game/DRM related threads in there simply because they are going to be swarmed by the vicious hordes of the Backroom.

I would like to make the point that the Backroom is not anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. There are no vicious hordes. All members of good character should feel that they are welcome. The discussions are challenging certainly, but we take great pains to ensure that they are also civil.

I can assure you, anyone who looks like they may become a vicious horde is crushed like a bug.

[TinCow]

I would like to make the point that the Backroom is not anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. There are no vicious hordes. All members of good character should feel that they are welcome. The discussions are challenging certainly, but we take great pains to ensure that they are also civil.

I can assure you, anyone who looks like they may become a vicious horde is crushed like a bug.

Part of my issue with the Backroom isn't really the people in it, so much as their style of argument. It seems to me like a more chaotic version of an organized debate where the participants are more concerned with simply winning the argument than with the actual topic itself. That's to be expected given the long history that many of them have with each other, but it is a bit off-putting for potential fresh fish and for the more casual participants like myself. If the more controversial Arena topics were moved to the Backroom, my concern would be that a few of these 'Backroom Pundits' would dominate the threads and scare away some of the more casual participants that often chime in right now.

[Privateerkev]

During the course of my one spectacular failure of an attempt to participate in a backroom conversation, I have found that many in there rather compete in a sort of a endurance contest and attempt to outlast each other with weak arguments, than actually try to hold a healthy debate.

That being said, I don't think the answer is to open up "mini-backrooms" all over the .Org. If there are problems with the backroom being daunting to those of us used to a different debating style, than the answer more seems to be to look into the backroom culture itself and see why it doesn't seem to be working for some people.

[Kekvit Irae]

On a little side note: for those of you (you know who you are) who are wondering why I made this thread instead of suggesting such a course of action to only Tosa and/or Froggy, it's because I want to know the opinions of the public and have an intelligent discussion going on about the future of the Arena. After all, isn't that the purpose of the Watchtower; to discuss Org policy? I respect each and every one of your opinions, even if they are completely opposite of mine, and just posting here shows that you care about the Arena.

/offtopic

[doc_bean]

I strongly disagree.

If the arena had, on average, more than 5 threads going on at the same time, it might be an option worth looking into. But let's face it, as much as I love the Arena, it's virtually dead. Creating a sub forum would only worsen the situation.

Besides, I agree with what Mouza and Nav said. DRM is, unfortunatly, a part of PC gaming. And a pretty damn important one for people like me, who use different systems.