Anti-Abortion Hypothetical Question

[Koga No Goshi]

It is true that America's standing in the eyes of the world is no longer so unquestionably high as it used to be. Whereas 30 years ago immigrants badly wanted to come to the U.S. and raise their kids here, it's really only true in certain cases now like China, Latin America, etc. When you talk to Canadians, Europeans or Australians or Japanese, a lot of them don't want to raise kids in the U.S. anymore. From a quality of life and opportunity perspective we have fallen behind and there is no longer any marked advantage to doing so here as opposed to other places. (Safety is also a concern for many people I've spoken to who say they'd rather move back to Sweden/insert home country when they have kids.)

[KukriKhan]

The difficult question to ask anti-abortion people is: if the moment of conception marks the birth of a human being, then shouldn't an embryo be granted full rights as human beings? This then, will have some serious consequences, and even dilemmas and inconsistensies.

Various laws in various North American Jurisdictions have been passed that confer, if not full citizenship or human rights, at least the "protection of the law", on the unborn. A quick Google reveals:

Canada

Pennsylvania

Missouri

Arkansas

So, although it may not yet be the Federal law of the land, various jurisdictions with the right to rule what constitutes murder, have therefore also implicitly ruled when in life the protection of government is mandatory.

I agree that the issue will appear on the SCOTUS schedule someday - probably within 10 years. Some guy on death row for killing an unborn child, but not the mother, will appeal.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Various laws in various North American Jurisdictions have been passed that confer, if not full citizenship or human rights, at least the "protection of the law", on the unborn.

In countries such as Germany, even birth in the country does not necessarily constitute citizenship (if neither parent is German). The exception is if at least one parent has lived in Germany for at least eight years, and had a permanent residence certificate for at least the last three, and the child was born on or after January 1st, 2000.

[Big_John]

just fyi, you can't "murder" through "neglect", at least not in the US (and anywhere with a descendant of english common law, i imagine). murder requires some form of specific intent and usually some form of premeditation. homicide via neglect is manslaughter.

if you want to reword the behavior as "reckless" instead of neglectful, then you could try to make a case for constructive intent.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

just fyi, you can't "murder" through "neglect", at least not in the US (and anywhere with a descendant of english common law, i imagine). murder requires some form of specific intent and usually some form of premeditation. homicide via neglect is manslaughter.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11092139/page/3/

[Strike For The South]

It is true that America's standing in the eyes of the world is no longer so unquestionably high as it used to be. Whereas 30 years ago immigrants badly wanted to come to the U.S. and raise their kids here, it's really only true in certain cases now like China, Latin America, etc. When you talk to Canadians, Europeans or Australians or Japanese, a lot of them don't want to raise kids in the U.S. anymore. From a quality of life and opportunity perspective we have fallen behind and there is no longer any marked advantage to doing so here as opposed to other places. (Safety is also a concern for many people I've spoken to who say they'd rather move back to Sweden/insert home country when they have kids.)

This is why we have more foreign born people than anyone else in the world right? because Americas so bad! Are there countries comparable to the US in allot of things? yes. Do some countries do things better? hell yes. But what America stands for and what America means to the mexican or to the African or the Chinese man when he steps of the boat is the same thing it meant for the Italian, Czech and jewish immigrant 100 years ago and the German Irish and English immigrant 200 years ago. Very few countries are so intertwined with an idea. America is a symbol of hope and that if work hard enough there is no limit to what you can do. Americas greatest strength is the fact that people from all over the wrold came here to better themselves. They believed in what this country stood for. That is what makes America unique the fact that diversity does not weaken us but makes us stronger.

[Koga No Goshi]

This is why we have more foreign born people than anyone else in the world right? because Americas so bad!

No, we have more foreign born people because of a huge exodus of mostly female Chinese immigrants to the United States (one of the biggest migrations in history) as well as what something like 7% of our population being completely undocumented immigrants who snuck in. (Maybe more, I guess they don't really know the true number, just going with the estimates.) And I already specifically made exception for those two major immigrant groups. But let's just take Japanese, as one example. Japanese used to be in the top 3 of Asian minority populations in the United States. It has dropped down to being only the 7th or 8th biggest, in part because there is virtually zero net movement from Japan to the U.S.

Why is that, exactly?

You can't get into these topics with a really simplistic black and white view. Yes, we have a large foreign born population. But qualify where those are coming from. The U.S. is not an unquestionably "better" place to a lot of first world residents anymore. Saying "well we get a ton from China and Mexico" =/= "every country wishes they could live here instead." In fact that's setting the bar pretty low in terms of judging where's the best country to move and raise kids.

[Strike For The South]

No, we have more foreign born people because of a huge exodus of mostly female Chinese immigrants to the United States (one of the biggest migrations in history) as well as what something like 7% of our population being completely undocumented immigrants who snuck in. (Maybe more, I guess they don't really know the true number, just going with the estimates.) And I already specifically made exception for those two major immigrant groups. But let's just take Japanese, as one example. Japanese used to be in the top 3 of Asian minority populations in the United States. It has dropped down to being only the 7th or 8th biggest, in part because there is virtually zero net movement from Japan to the U.S.

Why is that, exactly?

You can't get into these topics with a really simplistic black and white view. Yes, we have a large foreign born population. But qualify where those are coming from. The U.S. is not an unquestionably "better" place to a lot of first world residents anymore. Saying "well we get a ton from China and Mexico" =/= "every country wishes they could live here instead." In fact that's setting the bar pretty low in terms of judging where's the best country to move and raise kids.

We should start a new thread. I'd love go indepth with this subject but I gotta drive back to uni and deer and cotton fields dont get the best internet connection. But I would love to show the retention rates of these "migrant" workers.