Are ambakaro epones historically correct ?

[Foot]

If its 1861 those pictures are surely not under copyright any more. Besides, I'm pretty sure they would fall under a fair use policy.

Foot

[General Appo]

For once, Foot got owned.

[mcantu]

For once, Foot got owned.

hardly...he's 100% correct about the copyright issue

[General Appo]

hardly...he's 100% correct about the copyright issue

I was referring to the fact that Foot´s post was preceded with a very short time by another poster saying pretty much the same thing. Foot owned me in the same way a few days ago. Revenge is sweet.

[lobf]

I was referring to the fact that Foot´s post was preceded with a very short time by another poster saying pretty much the same thing. Foot owned me in the same way a few days ago. Revenge is sweet.

Tell us what his underwear smells like, Appo.

[General Appo]

Cherries. With banana icecream. Fabulous.

[Arutima]

ambakaro epones look amazing. The masks even make them a wee bit scary, wich i really like

[Celtic_Punk]

Jesus Christ, nobody is making money off it. So don't press a copyright issue... That's so ass inane. You are rebutting someone's remark, and showing proof. The deceased, and those who (do not deserve to - as they never drew it themselves... friggin theives) claim property of should be honoured one decided to use it as a source. The man's been dead for 200 years... let it go.

@OP - masks have been used for a long time. Their helmets would be tilted back(or if they were as complex to include hinges, lifted up) when they prepare to loose javelins or bows. masks were used when they closed to close combat, to incite fear into the enemy, and perhaps convince them they were facing an army of clones or demons perhaps (this is my own speculation). Perhaps the same reason was used that today's paramilitary's use- To hide the identity of the combatant. A faceless enemy strikes more fear into one than when you can see the man you lock blades with. Especially if you survive the encounter, lasting nightmares would probably ensue.(perhaps more so than if you fought a battle against those without masks -again obviously more speculation, but not unfounded.) Some masks were fitted with insulating cloth (as stated above) to protect the wearer from the cold, as you would have to fight battles in the most unforgiving weather sometimes (rain, snow, frost, chill, ect.). Facemasks were probably more common in rich armies then one thinks. If my memory serves me correctly, the ancient Chinese and Japanese were quite fond of facemasks, literally shaping them into demonic faces.

[oudysseos]

Look, the OP was a bit of a troll maybe, but no, the specific question raised has not been answered at all, at least not with any citations or evidence. Although I thought it was clearly stated before,

Did the Ambakaro Epones, in the far west of the Iberian peninsula, in the 3rd century BCE, wear armored face-masks into battle?

Foot and Celtic Punk have asserted that there is "plenty of primary evidence" that they did so. If that is the case, then surely it would be possible to cite some, or throw out a few 'breadcrumbs' for an interested researcher?

That face-masks existed at all is not at issue, but when, where, and how were they used?

When and Where

All the pictures that Cmacq posted are from http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryE...Facemasks.html. All are Roman. None are dated earlier than the 1st century CE. None are from Spain. (There are over 100 masks catalogued; some may have been found in Spain, or not. Does anyone know for sure?)

Cmacq says that we can assume a 1st century BCE use. Even if you like to assume things like that (why should you?), how does that get you to 272? He also advised the 'usual library archaeologist' (is that ad hominem?) to read Webb, Hellenistic Architectural Sculpture. Google Books to the rescue!

The bearded face-mask helmet raises the question as to whether the weapon-reliefs could date to the Roman Imperial period, for this type was a relatively common Roman parade helmet.

She goes on to conclude that she finds it likely that the reliefs are related to 4th century Thracian helmets. Hardly an unequivocal endorsement of early use, and anyway, she is commenting on the Pergamon friezes, found in Turkey, almost 3,000 kilometers in a straight line from western Iberia. What does this have to do with the Lusotana?

SO, nothing shown yet that face masks were used during the EB time frame. And all the masks cited, besides being far too late, are Roman or possibly Hellenistic. Not Iberian.
Now, just because the Romans wearing masks on parade doesn't prove that the Ambakaro Epones wore masks into battle 300 years earlier doesn't mean it isn't true anyway, just as exhibits of Roman caligae doesn't prove that the Iberians did or did not wear shoes. The Roman masks have nothing to do with the Lusotana.

All I'm asking, is did the team that made the Lusotana units have any specific evidence, archaeological, numismatic, epigraphic, whatever, that they were as depicted? I'm not sure that one can assume

that individuals living in an area well within the Hellenistic sphere had access to Hellenistic type war gear.

If you do, then why not Iberian pike phalanxes or anything else you want? There must have been a reason why the unit was given a face mask. Again, if there is proof available, why not share it?

How

They [Kalkriese, Vechten and Nijmegen face-masks] were never intended for use in battle. These are the cavalry sports helmets, worn on parade and in displays.

From The Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies 3 1992, Roman face masks from the Kops Plateau, Nijmegen, The Netherlands, W.J.H. Willems. http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Webb also refers to the Roman masks as Parade Helmets, and of course there's J.E. Lendon already quoted, with a link to the original Arrian text. So there is some written evidence that the Roman face-masks were not battle gear. Is there any hard evidence to the contrary? I know Foot says that there is. Could he point me in the right direction?

Can I just say that I don't care if the Ambakaro Epones unit is speculative or derivative in some way. You have made hundreds of beautifully detailed units: there is just not enough hard evidence left to make each one 110% rock-solid irreproachably authentic. And it's a game, not a PHD dissertation. But if that is the case, can the answer not be candid? Look at the Persian Cataphracts answer (post no. 11) on this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=108413. Polite, informative, honest. Not a bother on him, as we say here.

I only pursued this thread 'cos I actually wanted to know about that primary evidence that Foot has mentioned, not because I think there's something wrong with the unit. I guess I should just let it go if there are no real answers.


P.S. I used to live in Bremen, not too far from Kalkriese. The pics don't do it justice.

[Ibrahim]

If its 1861 those pictures are surely not under copyright any more. Besides, I'm pretty sure they would fall under a fair use policy.

Foot

actually, ownership is still expressed. I'm well aware that this is beyond the c.75 years post mortem of the author(s), but the Alabarda associacion claims it as property-so no, no publishing. we are lucky at kronoskaf to have a few pages of the conde to display outside of the Alabarda; we cannot publish a single page of the Album de taccoli, from 1759. that one is owned by Mr. Torres. nice guy- really helpful. only he, my boss, and myself ever looked inside of it. and I swore not to show a single page-just the result.

so in summation: fair use applies if the author was dead for over 75 years, and ownership/ claim was not made on the work. sorry. I'd normally say yes, but the works are claimed, so plz.

[mcantu]

actually, ownership is still expressed. I'm well aware that this is beyond the c.75 years post mortem of the author(s), but the Alabarda associacion claims it as property-so no, no publishing. we are lucky at kronoskaf to have a few pages of the conde to display outside of the Alabarda; we cannot publish a single page of the Album de taccoli, from 1759. that one is owned by Mr. Torres. nice guy- really helpful. only he, my boss, and myself ever looked inside of it. and I swore not to show a single page-just the result.

so in summation: fair use applies if the author was dead for over 75 years, and ownership/ claim was not made on the work. sorry. I'd normally say yes, but the works are claimed, so plz.

fair use (only applies when there is a valid copyright. if a work is no longer under copyright, fair use is not applicable and the work can be used freely

http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/definiti.shtml

Fair Use

The right set forth in Section 107 of the United States Copyright Act, to use copyrighted materials for certain purposes, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair: (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

[Ibrahim]

I see. then I'll ned to have a talk with someone...

but it raises the question: why not let us publish the stuff(Album and what have you), without permission? I mean, If indeed what you say is true (and it is), why the ban? I even have the letter from torres copied by the boss.

[mcantu]

I see. then I'll ned to have a talk with someone...

but it raises the question: why not let us publish the stuff(Album and what have you), without permission? I mean, If indeed what you say is true (and it is), why the ban? I even have the letter from torres copied by the boss.

well if its their own personal property, they can do (or not do) whatever they want with it. if there are already images of the plates in circulation, then they have no say over how those are used.