European Banks: What's Going On?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Louis, you act like Ireland got invited to a club and then started breaking the rules to get ahead.

It's called free trade. Ireland is working you guys over with a competitive advantage. Protectionist pouting will advance humanity nowhere. I puzzle why France skulks when seeing what lowering taxes has done for Ireland, and demands that Ireland raise its taxes and thus be cast back into the pit of misery with France and the rest, instead of trying to lower taxes themselves.

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

It's called free trade. Ireland is working you guys over with a competitive advantage. Protectionist pouting will advance humanity nowhere. I puzzle why France skulks when seeing what lowering taxes has done for Ireland, and demands that Ireland raise its taxes and thus be cast back into the pit of misery with France and the rest, instead of trying to lower taxes themselves.

CR

Competitive taxation among European nations would benefit them all. Refusing to compete seems to only be benefitting Ireland.

Note the US. Although we're federalized, states have control over many business taxes and regulations which keeps them low and spurs developement. A single tax rate, as Louis seems to want for Europe, would have less beneficial effects.

[Incongruous]

Louis, you act like Ireland got invited to a club and then started breaking the rules to get ahead.

It's called free trade. Ireland is working you guys over with a competitive advantage. Protectionist pouting will advance humanity nowhere. I puzzle why France skulks when seeing what lowering taxes has done for Ireland, and demands that Ireland raise its taxes and thus be cast back into the pit of misery with France and the rest, instead of trying to lower taxes themselves.

CR

Real competition would only be possible without the EU, without which Ireland would be a nothing, so yeah lets do that!

[gaelic cowboy]

Uhuh, another great example of prime bollocks!

Real competition would only be possible without the EU, without which Ireland would be a nothing, so yeah lets do that!
I'm sick and tired of Americans posting blatantly anti-European crap based on...

Let them post what they like it keeps us all on our toes.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Uhuh, another great example of prime bollocks!

Real competition would only be possible without the EU, without which Ireland would be a nothing, so yeah lets do that!
I'm sick and tired of Americans posting blatantly anti-European crap based on...

Right...you know, something that nonsensical defies rational answers. Kindly restate whatever point you were attempting to make..

CR

[Koga No Goshi]

I am here to officially state, for the record, that I know almost nothing about the European banking system or its current state. But it's good family fun watching you all discuss it.

[Incongruous]

Right...you know, something that nonsensical defies rational answers. Kindly restate whatever point you were attempting to make..

CR

I don't reply to your posts and expect rational answers CR...

[Louis VI the Fat]

No more talk of the financial crisis. Might as well return to the topic of wealth re-distribution through government means within the EU, the use and the flow of subsidies and tax incentives.

I am not going to write another hefty post about tax havens. Instead, I'll reverse the subject and you all get to show what's wrong with the bit below.


The whole of the EU is simply envious of France's phenomenally succesful agriculture. This succes is not based on a use of government incentives, i.e. taxes and subsidies, but on clever French farmers who outcompete their competitors. The phenomenally clever French farmer and government have simply outwitted their competitors by seizing upon the possibilities the EU market offers. You are all simply resentful of this competitive edge. And rather than being true to your national character of incessant whiners, you should simply work as just hard as the French farmer if you wish to reduce the gap.
Furthermore, you should all mind your own daisy business and not interfere with French sovereign affairs like our use of the Common Agricultural Policy.


Is the above meaningful? If not, what, exactly, is wrong with it?

[JR-]

it is quite easy to believe that the french consider CAP to be a soveriegn french affair. ;)

[Strike For The South]

See France is like The TEXAS of the EU. Others are jealous of what she can produce and then gang up on her. France is a beautiful flower wilting under rage filled continentals and stuffy Brits. So that is why I propose a Texan-France union. The best food the best women the best of everything. We would be the pinnacle of human development.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Think of the ego

[gaelic cowboy]

No more talk of the financial crisis. Might as well return to the topic of wealth re-distribution through government means within the EU, the use and the flow of subsidies and tax incentives.

I am not going to write another hefty post about tax havens. Instead, I'll reverse the subject and you all get to show what's wrong with the bit below.


The whole of the EU is simply envious of France's phenomenally succesful agriculture. This succes is not based on a use of government incentives, i.e. taxes and subsidies, but on clever French farmers who outcompete their competitors. The phenomenally clever French farmer and government have simply outwitted their competitors by seizing upon the possibilities the EU market offers. You are all simply resentful of this competitive edge. And rather than being true to your national character of incessant whiners, you should simply work as just hard as the French farmer if you wish to reduce the gap.
Furthermore, you should all mind your own daisy business and not interfere with French sovereign affairs like our use of the Common Agricultural Policy.


Is the above meaningful? If not, what, exactly, is wrong with it?

I have no problem at all with the CAP come on the French Farmers

[Incongruous]

No more talk of the financial crisis. Might as well return to the topic of wealth re-distribution through government means within the EU, the use and the flow of subsidies and tax incentives.

I am not going to write another hefty post about tax havens. Instead, I'll reverse the subject and you all get to show what's wrong with the bit below.


The whole of the EU is simply envious of France's phenomenally succesful agriculture. This succes is not based on a use of government incentives, i.e. taxes and subsidies, but on clever French farmers who outcompete their competitors. The phenomenally clever French farmer and government have simply outwitted their competitors by seizing upon the possibilities the EU market offers. You are all simply resentful of this competitive edge. And rather than being true to your national character of incessant whiners, you should simply work as just hard as the French farmer if you wish to reduce the gap.
Furthermore, you should all mind your own daisy business and not interfere with French sovereign affairs like our use of the Common Agricultural Policy.


Is the above meaningful? If not, what, exactly, is wrong with it?

I point to:
"as just hard", there are some structural flaws.

[Kralizec]

daisy business?

[Tristuskhan]

(.....) but on clever French farmers who outcompete their competitors.

Louis, you really know nothing about french farmers, my friend!

ps: and before you whip me for not having understood your sense of humour, I must tell you I understood your joke, uh! Still, you don't know much about our ploucs

[Kralizec]

I'm not sure if I get the joke, other than that it's got sarcasm written all over it?

While I can see that threatening supermarkets into stocking native products only, commandeering trucks with foreign products at the border and intimidating import companies could be seen as means of competing with others, they're technically illegal even if they usually go unpunished by the French justice system.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't reply to your posts and expect rational answers CR...

So in other words, you can formulate no argument whatsoever against my post?

@Tribesy - links or you're lying.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

With its net contribution France is the LAST European country that should raise a clamour about financial solidarity.

Perennial myth. I'll just never understand where this comes from.

A simple look at the actual numbers proves otherwise.


The French / German political project of creating the world's largest internal market benefits the trading countries economically more than these two big continental countries. Let's call it enlightened self-interest. Trade and service economies such as the UK, and countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, benefit economically much more from the EU than France or Germany. As do tax havens like Luxembourg and Ireland.

Even when disregarding that and limiting ourselves to a shopkeeper's mindset, ie, direct payments and benefits, the final bill is remarkably evenly distributed between the UK and France:

UK pays 103, receives 46, net benefit -57.
France pays 140, receives 89, net benefit - 51.

I shall not complicate matters by putting a monetary value here on France's financial, intellectual, diplomatic and political expenditure on supporting the EU versus Britain's expenditure on perennial obstruction.

By comparison:
Germany pays 164, receives 78, net benefit -86.
(Tip to InsaneApache: careful lad, the UK belongs in the exact same category as France, not with the absolute top tier of net contributors. )

The biggest net contributors are Germany, the Netherlands, and the Nordic countries. These countries pay more to the EU than Britain or France. But they, in turn, pay far less, by several degrees, in military expenditure than the UK or France do for the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy. Depending on one's political stance - does military safety have a net positive economic benefit on the EU or not - this more than balances the difference.

So: France is within the top tier of net contributors to the EU, in absolute and relative numbers. The net amount France expends annually on building a democratic Europe is simply astonishing. But I won't sulk about it: continent wide democracy is worth any price to me.

[Kralizec]

The reason why the UK is "down there" with France is because Thatcher's rebate. This rebate is smaler in size than the amount of CAP subsidies that French farmers get and the UK is a larger net contributor than France, pleas of French politicians to lift the rebate for reasons of solidarity notwithstanding. Maybe the rebate should be smaller, but I'm more comfortable with money flowing back to taxpayers than pork barrel spending for farmers regardless of nationality.

Of course France is not actually costing Dutch or English taxpayers anything as they're still a net contributor. And I don't have a problem with helping impoverished eastbloc countries out to a degree. But France isn't pulling the full load that other wealthy western European countries do, yet still feel entitled to lecture others on how to behave.

I agree that France put a lot of effort in making the EC look from within and from outside as a French project foremost, for better or worse. I think its actual influence is generally overstated though; historically western Germany had just as much input but they don't seize every opportunity to advertise the fact. The UK might have had a larger role in shaping the community if France hadn't blocked their entry for a decade for petty political reasons.

[Tribesman]

It's called free trade. Ireland is working you guys over with a competitive advantage. Protectionist pouting will advance humanity nowhere. I puzzle why France skulks when seeing what lowering taxes has done for Ireland, and demands that Ireland raise its taxes and thus be cast back into the pit of misery with France and the rest, instead of trying to lower taxes themselves.

Ireland is buggered rabbit , thats what those "wonderful" policies Ireland tried did .

But anyway back to the bail out plan , the guarantees and all that . Biffo spoke today , there is no plan and no guarantee , they just made an announcement that there was and now they are starting to think about it

[Louis VI the Fat]

'Daisy' is my gentle euphemism for . The flower picture has become an obscene gesture by now.

The point of my post was that seemingly internal business can only be properly understood within the context of the workings of the EU. The Irish model as much as the French agricultural model. Both policies can only be properly understood within the framework of the EU. Neither would exist without the EU.

The reason why the UK is "down there" with France is because Thatcher's rebate. This rebate is smaler in size than the amount of CAP subsidies that French farmers get

And the rebate is larger than the distance between Paris and London in measured in Visigoth feet. In other words, what is the relevance?
I'll go out on a limb and guess that you read mostly English language foreign news. In the British press, there exists a persistant image of France as forever living off EU funds, with Britain bravely resisting this. That it is only owing to Thatcher that the UK is somewhat shielded from this French thievery. Reality, of course, does not usually correspond with what the British tabloids (from the Daily Mail to the Telegraph) write. Here's the real deal:

The actual numbers.
France is with the top tier of net contributors. Within a margin of a few percent of the UK contribution. To put it differently: the difference is approximately 1/3000th of either GDP.

As importantly, the followinf mechanism:
France is the second largest absolute contributor to the EU. Very closely behind Germany.
Hence there is no financial gain for anybody outside of France from abolishing the CAP. Because, if the CAP is abolished, France will have to get compensated for it's very large absolute contribution through other means. As for Britain, a simple French rebate will be put in place of the CAP payouts.
From this follows that the EU’s agricultural contribution to France is entirely French funded. What’s more, France pays a hefty share of agricultural support for the other countries on top.



EU policy is a result of domestic forces in the member states. For France, this means placating the peasants with handouts. They will only confirm to France paying tens of billions to the EU if there's some immediate financial benefit for them.

The CAP is the price the ideal pays to the pitchfork to become reality.

The CAP lads, is what Paris pays to French peasants in return for their not obstructing France fullfil her vocation: to enslave you all into submission to Paris to turn Europe in a continent wide democracy; with liberty, equality and fraternity from the Atlantic to the Ural.

Still, you don't know much about our ploucs

I wouldn't dream of writing anything about my Bertaèyn friends again. My behind is stil aching from the spanking you gave it last time.

[InsaneApache]

The CAP lads, is what Paris pays to French peasants in return for their not obstructing France fullfil her vocation: to enslave you all into submission to Paris to turn Europe in a continent wide democracy; with liberty, equality and fraternity from the Atlantic to the Urinal.

There, that's more like it.

[KukriKhan]

So, InsaneApache, when you went to the bank to pull out your pension, was there a long line, did you get your money, and did they try to dissuade you? Or did you change your mind?

[Louis VI the Fat]

While medium-sized former Great Powers pour pocket change into the world economy, like wee $700 billion bailout packages, the world's real power gathered in Paris yesterday and announced a plan worth €2 trillion. Or four times the size of the puny American package.

The plan seems to have had immediate effect.

The governments of Europe yesterday embarked on their biggest financial gamble since the launch of the euro single currency with the boldest financial rescue scheme ever seen. They are pledging to buy up tottering banks, underwrite their lending, and flood the markets with liquidity in a package that could run to a staggering €2tn in total across the EU.

The scale, ambition and potential costs of the programmes announced yesterday suggested that European leaders such as Gordon Brown, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Germany's chancellor, Angela Merkel, were determined to rise to the challenge of the financial crisis through concerted action, displaying a degree of leadership that put Washington, the global economic leader, in the shade.

The banking sectors in Spain and France are believed to be the healthiest in Europe at the moment, requiring less intervention. Nonetheless, Sarkozy proposed legislation to be pushed through parliament this week allocating €360bn, €40bn of which could be used to buy up bits of ailing banks.

[KukriKhan]

Nice to know the official abbreviation for trillion will be 'tn' - I've wondered about that a few weeks now since the money amounts mentioned/reported have reached beyond the stratosphere.

My only advice to Europe: be wary of the details, mates. Over here, our Congress, in grand post9-11 style, gave our Executive Branch a blank check, to use as they see fit. Not a penny is spent yet, as far as we know, but what they say they'll spend it on changes daily. And all thay have to do is report twice a year.

I recommend putting a few more strings on your bailouts rescue plans.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I shall accept the numbers from your source. I shall also accept your definition - the least favourable way for France of calculating EU contribution - of monetary per capita direct net contribution. Here's what we get then so far:

1990 - France 3rd of twelve.
1994 - France 3rd of twelve.
2000-2002 - France sixth of fifteen.
2006-2013 - France sixth of 27.

Is that 'tiny'? Or is that, like I argue, 'just below the absolute top tier'?

I would say that we simply differ in our definition of 'tiny'. But I won't. Our conversation started over the claim that 'With its net contribution France is the LAST European country that should raise a clamour about financial solidarity'.
I really do think this is the result of persistant myth, of standard anti-EU lore: that France is using the EU as a money making racket. This is simply not true. France is usually just behind the top tier of contributors.

(And I'll spare us all calculations - some quite reasonable in fact - that show why France is the largest EU contributor. )