Ancient warfare movies

[cmacq]

Indeed, thanks for the correction. Within the historic setting, you may understand why I may have remembered that line as I did. I'm not sure if Ripley actually understood its potential significance, yet I noted this as central to the theme of individual and factional bonding or conflict, within the larger context.




CmacQ

[Gleemonex]

First, some responses:

When I still was a small Dutchhoplite i thought "Fall of the Roman empire" was very impressive.

Hear hear. I haven't seen it since I was a barely a Gleemonex in my father's eye, though. [1]

However pure historical accuracy does not make a good movie.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't consider that an absolute. Consider "Tora Tora Tora", for instance. Phenomenal movie, then and now. Beyond the pacing and tension, it was one of the landmark movies for special effects (right up there with Star Wars, Tron and Jurassic Park IMO).

300 is, IMO, a bit like the story that a Greek storyteller would have told about Thermopylae at the time. It's embellished and 'mythified' to make it exciting and inspiring. The ancient Greeks would have loved it.

Actually it's exactly like that. In both the movie and the comic it's "revealed" at the end that the whole story is nothing more than that, a story told by Dilios to the greek soldiers before the battle of Plataea. Although in the comic it's a little more obvious since it's mentioned several times how Dilios "spins his stories".

You beat me to it, guys. I was going to point out that within the first ten minutes of the film we see Dilios literally walking around a campfire telling the story. What more to we need? A "<blink>Warning: Campfire Story!</blink>" text across Dilios' face?! Honestly, I have to wonder of the detractors [2] of 300 if they were taught to hate fun as children.

That being said, I wouldn't have any complaints with a movie adaptation of something more verisimilar like "Gates of Fire" by Steven Pressfield [3][4]. I've never seen "The 300 Spartans", incidentally, although if it were called "The 300 Spartans and 700 Thespians" I'd be more impressed.

Anyhow, here are some more ancient warfare films that I enjoyed, in no particular order:

Kingdom of Heaven (albeit medieval, not ancient)

Gladiator

The Last Samurai. Yes yes, I know. But besides the bullhockey "White man out-samurais the samurais" plot device and the inaccuracies, (and the fact that it's technically not "Ancient Warfare", thus OT, but I had to mention it) I found the pacing of the film, the changes of mood and the action scenes were great. And A-ru-gu-ren's genuine appreciation for the culture that adopts him tempered my objections a bit [5].

Alexander. Yes yes, I know. And I share many of the criticisms stated here and in other threads. But I have to say, as a straight guy, that the portrayal of his relationship with Hephaistion was rather sweet and touching. I was cringing through the whole movie, waiting for some nauseating "The Crying Game" moment, but it never came. And, as an animal lover, the scene with Bucephalus dying was very powerful and symbolic. They also did a great job of showing the chariot-beating U formation -- I wish they'd done the same for the companion cavalry leaping over the battle line.

You know, I'm trying to think of more movies set in Classical Antiquity, but they escape me. And all my interest in King Arthur evaporated when I saw that politically-correct feminist-pandering poster of Guinevere as an archer(ess).

Well, that was longer-winded than I'd hoped.

-Glee

[1] Sorry, it was stronger than me.
[2] Objecting to 300's inaccuracy is fine, but claiming that the movie is objectively bad because of it is just pompous intellectual masturbation.
[3] Going on second-hand accounts. All the references to 'chow' and the modern-military-style bitching and moaning (see [4]) in the samples turned me right off.
[4] although if he would cut out all the suspension-of-disbelief-raping US Marine slang from 2500 years in the future I wouldn't be too saddened. Yes Steven, you were in the Marines. We get it. Congratulations.
[5] I'm still waiting for "The Last N***a On Earth" starring Tom Hanks

[Dutchhoplite]

And all my interest in King Arthur evaporated when I saw that politically-correct feminist-pandering poster of Guinevere as an archer(ess).[/I]

Keira Knightley dressed in leather....

[Celtic_Punk]

Tora Tora Tora was absolutely FREAAAKING amazing.... Actually, I will go rent it this afternoon, You've got me itching to watch it again... Its long... but id rather have a GOOD long movie... than have a 4 Titanic *pukes*


see "Pearl Habour" if you wish to claw your eyes out.

Alexander was nice aswell. I would have liked it to have focused more on the conquest than his relationship with hephastion. I have no problem with homosexuality, but there's no REAL concrete evidence of a relationship with him (though I do believe it's true) and it wasn't the only thing about him. His homosexual relationship was not the centre stage of Alexandros' life. His exploits were.

I did like the ending scene with Ptolemy though, how it shows that it was the Successors who wrote the history. I am a firm believer that Alexander was assassinated. Which was probably for the better... Who knows what would have happened if he didn't die. He certainly would have conquered the West. Rome would have been no match for him. Interesting speculation.
I liked that scene where Ptolemy and Alexander stood on the Himalayas contemplating the world as well. Alexander was one of those movies where when the music cued just so that your hair would stand up on end, and you certainly get caught up in the moment. It wasn't the best movie, but it was pretty damn good.

by the way, you know what makes me more sick than watching Troy?
The fact that at the american premier of Das Boot, before the titles it states "40 000 german submariners were put out to sea between 1939 and 1945... less than 10 000 returned" The audience clapped. Thats just f***king disgusting. like thats REALLY bad.

I'd also like to note that Jerry sunk over 100 000 tons of shipping alone in Feb. 1940 for the loss of 1 boat. considering your average ship holds about anywhere between 2000tns-12000. thats alot of merchant vessels.


Anyone seen Henry V?

[Poppis]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't consider that an absolute. Consider "Tora Tora Tora", for instance. Phenomenal movie, then and now. Beyond the pacing and tension, it was one of the landmark movies for special effects (right up there with Star Wars, Tron and Jurassic Park IMO).

I can't believe I have missed this one. Just checked it at imdb and wiki. Seems to be a bit more accurate than Pearl Harbour. I have to get this ASAP.

Alexander. Yes yes, I know. And I share many of the criticisms stated here and in other threads. But I have to say, as a straight guy, that the portrayal of his relationship with Hephaistion was rather sweet and touching. I was cringing through the whole movie, waiting for some nauseating "The Crying Game" moment, but it never came. And, as an animal lover, the scene with Bucephalus dying was very powerful and symbolic. They also did a great job of showing the chariot-beating U formation -- I wish they'd done the same for the companion cavalry leaping over the battle line.

It could've used another "big battle" scene, though.

[Codyos Vladimiros]

+1 on Kingdom of Heaven

However, you have to watch the directors cut. The studio cut out almost 45 minutes of footage that IMO, is critical to the story. Eva Green (omg how hot is she?!) refused to promote the movie after most of her characters story was cut.

Also, the guy that warhammers the knight in the head at the beginning of the movie is Vorenus from Rome on HBO

What he said, BIG TIME. Do not see the theatrical version. The theatrical version is crap.

As for myself, I am fond of the Battle of Gaugemela scene in Alexander, which is, IMO, about the only redeeming part of that film. I think it gives a better view of pike warfare than anything else out there.

[Skandinav]

I must agree with some of you that Fall of the Roman Empire from Hollywoods golden period was a great movie when I saw it when I was younger, haven´t seen it for many, many years though but I still believe it is far better than what I´ve seen since, for example in the other movies mentioned in this thread.

[Gleemonex]

Keira Knightley dressed in leather....

True. But even she objected to her digitally enhanced bust in the poster in question -- which I find quite admirable.

Titanic *pukes*

see "Pearl Habour" if you wish to claw your eyes out.

No thanks, on both counts. I make a point of inanely declaring "It sinks at the end" (or alternately "Maybe he'll miss the iceberg this time") every time I catch someone watching Titanic. And I wouldn't trust Michael Bay to follow the historical timeline of a fart, let alone such an emotionally-charged (for Americans anyways) event as Pearl Harbo(u)r.

Alexander was nice aswell. I would have liked it to have focused more on the conquest than his relationship with hephastion. I have no problem with homosexuality, but there's no REAL concrete evidence of a relationship with him (though I do believe it's true) and it wasn't the only thing about him. His homosexual relationship was not the centre stage of Alexandros' life. His exploits were.

It could've used another "big battle" scene, though.

True -- but it was a large part of his character development (plus his crazy dysfunctional relationship with his parents). Ideally, I would have liked to see the relationship with Hephaistion stay, and have another battle as Poppis says, to water down the 'romance' in a longer bloodier movie. Oh, and perhaps a bit more Plato.

by the way, you know what makes me more sick than watching Troy?
The fact that at the american premier of Das Boot, before the titles it states "40 000 german submariners were put out to sea between 1939 and 1945... less than 10 000 returned" The audience clapped. Thats just f***king disgusting. like thats REALLY bad.

I'd also like to note that Jerry sunk over 100 000 tons of shipping alone in Feb. 1940 for the loss of 1 boat. considering your average ship holds about anywhere between 2000tns-12000. thats alot of merchant vessels.

Yeah, that is sad. I hope they started to turn around by the "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" scene -- Das Boot is one of my very favourite movies, due in no small part to the character development and pathos. Also, it was the first movie to actively portray the German soldiers (well, sailors) as fully-realised characters with deep motivations.

I can't believe I have missed this one. Just checked it at imdb and wiki. Seems to be a bit more accurate than Pearl Harbour. I have to get this ASAP.

Absolutely do. While you're visiting WWII, you might also check out another stealth classic, "The Guns of Navarone" (and in the unlikely event that you've yet to see it, the aforementionned "Das Boot").

Oh, and thanks to mcantu and Codyos Vladimiros for recommending the director's cut of KoH. I'm a big fan of directors' cuts (yes, even the 209-minute Das Boot behemoth). I've heard that the extended release of Gladiator is quite better too (perhaps in this very thread; sorry, too lazy to scroll back). Incidentally, do Alexander and Troy have directors' cuts?

-Glee

[oudysseos]

Let me pre-empt this by saying that I didn't hate 300, but...

This is an incredible article, called 300: Separating Fact from Fiction, from an Iranian/Persian perspective, which I think is great as 99% of the posts here and elsewhere that I've read have focused on the historical inaccuracies in depicting the Greeks. Well worth a read.

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgur...icial%26sa%3DG

[tapanojum]

Gladiator is my all time favorite movie in general.

[Centurion Crastinus]

+1 on Kingdom of Heaven

However, you have to watch the directors cut. The studio cut out almost 45 minutes of footage that IMO, is critical to the story. Eva Green (omg how hot is she?!) refused to promote the movie after most of her characters story was cut.

Also, the guy that warhammers the knight in the head at the beginning of the movie is Vorenus from Rome on HBO

I agree. The uncut version is a totally different movie.

[Gleemonex]

Let me pre-empt this by saying that I didn't hate 300, but...

hahaha.. I hope I didn't come off as THAT bitter. I have no problem with someone who doesn't like a given movie. The problem I've encountered (rarely, mind you) with 300 is that I find people telling me what movies to like.

This is an incredible article, called 300: Separating Fact from Fiction, from an Iranian/Persian perspective, which I think is great as 99% of the posts here and elsewhere that I've read have focused on the historical inaccuracies in depicting the Greeks. Well worth a read.

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgur...icial%26sa%3DG

There. THAT'S how to criticise 300. Although it speaks more to modern jingoism and xenophobia than it does the movie itself. Indeed, the author says so plainly at the beginning. Sadly, it'll take more than an essay to fix modern jingoism and xenophobia.

Thanks for the link!

-Glee

[Celtic_Punk]

anyone thinking of seeing titanic, please see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuSdU8tbcHY

i just saved you 4 boring hours, in which you only get to see one pair of boobs. and they werent even that nice...

[oudysseos]

Now now, there's no call to demean anyone's boobs.

[Goth47]

Nice 1 Celtic Punk, that clip started my weekend with a laugh

[Celtic_Punk]

lol im not demeaning, im just saying theres better out there rofl.

[Europe]

The best: Asterix and Obelix vs Caesar (Wy has nobody mentioned this film?)


The worst: Asterix & Obelix: Mission Cleopatra

[Spartan198]

My take on ancient warfare movies is two-fold: (A) I focus on the aspects of a movie I enjoy, rather than dwelling on the things I don't like about it (e.g., I'm not going to condemn King Arthur simply because the Saxons are using crossbows instead of bows), and (B) I seem to be one of the very few people in the world who actually realize that Hollywood is the entertainment capitol of the world, not the academic capitol of the world.

With that said, my favorite is 300 (which I saw in theaters at least seven times) and my least favorite is a tie between Braveheart (I don't know why, I just can't really get into it) and Kingdom of Heaven (I hate Orlando Bloom).

[Jolt]

KoH actually had one of the most confusing stories I ever saw. I put it up with the film of Alexander. Totally disconnected.

There's a guy in a random European country (Was it England? France?), suddenly comes out a noble from nowhere and says, the guy is his son. Then the priest says the decapitaded his dead wife and he kills the priest because of it and flees.
In 5 minutes, he catches up with his father and immediatly starts learning swordsplay and consequently appear random soldiers to get our poor guy.
Another 5 minutes later, he's already in Venice or somewhere around Italy, and his father dies from the previous fight, making him his heir. (The guy who, in films time, 10 minutes back was just a normal peasent or whatever).
10 minutes later he is already in the Holy Land, survivor of a shipwreck and stumbles off into the desert and kills a Muslim (I don't remember what for) that comes across his way. Another 10 minutes later, he meats with the major nobles already in Jerusalem, and he is given a fief in a village somewhere in the middle of the desert, and to the great surprise, he decides that there is little water around, and to solve that little problem, he just snaps his fingers and the village soon enough has great fountains of water. >_>
20 minutes later, Saladin is attacking one of the villain (film-wise) noble's possessions for something he did to the Muslims to get the throne or something. After the King comes to the rescue everyone is put back in their place.
10 minutes later, the King dies and the villain takes the throne and starts attacking the Muslims in the desert and are wiped out, making Saladin attack Jerusalem defended by our guy who one hour ago was a simple peasent, and then was now crushing every Muslim attempt to take the city.
20 minutes later, he surrenders the city so he can leave the city with his people.

THE END.

That's pretty much what I understood from the film.

Alexander was very much the same thing:

First 30 minutes: Alexander's youth under Philip
Second 30 minutes: Battle of Gaugamela
Third 30 minutes: Banquet, Arriving in India, Battle of the river Hydaspes, Mutiny, Massive Weddings, Alexander's death.

That was why I was very disapointed with both movies. >_>

[machinor]

You guys hate "King Arthur"? Go and watch "The Last Legion"! Seriously, I haven't seen such a silly movie in years. I mean yeah, 300 is silly but deliberately silly. "The Last Legion" is silly without noticing. Examples needed? Well how about a bodyguard corps employed by a Eastern Roman ambassador consisting of hooded, Kung-Fu-fighting, female Indians?! I had much fun, watching it with some friends of mine and a vast amount of beer, though. :D

[Poppis]

Absolutely do. While you're visiting WWII, you might also check out another stealth classic, "The Guns of Navarone" (and in the unlikely event that you've yet to see it, the aforementionned "Das Boot").

Yea, I've seen them both(although it's been a while since I last saw Navarone). Das Boot sure is a masterpiece. I got the The original uncut version, almost 5 hours of sweating men stuck in a tin can. What's there not to like?

Incidentally, do Alexander and Troy have directors' cuts?

They do. Troy got 30 minutes more in the directors cut; extended battle scenes(most significantly at the sacking of Troy which was barely shown in the theatrical version) and extended sex scenes.

Alexanders directors cut removed 17 minutes of footage and added nine back, so it's actually shorter than the theatrical version.

There's also another version: Alexander Revisited: The Final Unrated Cut or Alexander: Revisited which is a 3 hours and 34 minutes long. Aparently it takes a more in-depth look at Alexander's life and his relationships with Olympias, Philip, Hephaestion, Roxanne and Ptolemy.

I haven't seen any of these, but I dare say that no amount of revising will make Troy any better. And without a new battle scene in Alexander, I wouldn't stay awake beyond the battle of Gaugamela.


Oh and Jolt, I don't know whether you were speaking about the theatrical version of KoH or not, but everybody who has seen the directors cut have said to me that it's like a whole other movie compared to the theatrical version.

[Conradus]

You guys sure are hard on most of these movies.

I liked pratically all of them.

King Arthur is great, a badass Owen, badass knights, decent figths, a stunning Keira, who cares then that it's about as historical as lorica segmentata in EB?

300 never claims to be historical. It's based on a graphic novel and the style is nicely transported. The Spartans are just cool to watch, and their phalanx actually looked right at one moment.

Kingdom of Heaven I rather disliked (can't stand Bloom) and I never got aroud to see the director's cut.

Troy was another fairly good blockbuster. Sure it's about as close to Homer's Illiad as Schwarzenegger ever came to being an actor but Brad Pitt was a cool, badass, arrogant Achilles. Like he should be. Eric Bana did a good portrayal of Hector too. And their fight was just fantastic.

Alexander was another movie I kinda liked. The battle was stunning, some aspects of his life were enlarged, but all in all it was a fair view of the man. His relation with Hephaestion, the troubles with succession, even Roxanne (though the wedding night probably wasn't so :))

[Ramistrov]

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned Spartacus yet! SHAME ON YOU!!!

My favourite is probably KOH for Medieval fun and Gladiator for the Ancient!

Honourable mentions goto: El Cid, Braveheart (Tragic but fun), Troy, Alexander and Rise & Fall.

[Eduorius]

My favorite ancient warfare movie would be Alexander. I liked a lot the documentary Becoming Alexander were it showed how Colin Farrell prepared for the role training with the kopis and all that.

Since many people are mentioning KoH, I think I can also say Alatriste. Both are great warfare movies.

[hoom]

There are plenty of good Vietnam/WWII/WWI movies.
Not so many Medieval ones & sweet FA Ancient.

On the off chance, does 'A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...' count?

On the Medieval side of things:
Pretty much anything Akira Kurosawa is awesome. Particularly 'Ran' in terms of scale of battles.
But the best ever has to be Monty Python and the Holy Grail

I'll give another (serious) vote to Spartacus in the Ancient period
I've only seen the directors cut of Alexander & I like it. Will have to see if I can find that 'revisited' version.

300: People like to defend it as 'its unhistorical because its based on the comic which is unhistorical because its fun' or something.
The reality would have been much more interesting/fun than that bollocks.
Nice camera work & effects though.

[Aemilius Paulus]

My favorite ancient warfare movie would be Alexander.

I would like it a lot more if they didn't focus so much on Alexander's sexuality. They really have to stop inserting political correctness into every movie. Plus, having erotic love for young men was common among the Hellenes of that time. Most of the men had pederastic and homosexual experiences aplenty, although most of them liked women as well, something that not all of the sources mention (such as Hollywood! - I mean they practically turned the movie into one long romance between two gay guys - definitely not what Alexander's life was!)

[Codyos Vladimiros]

Pretty much anything Akira Kurosawa is awesome. Particularly 'Ran' in terms of scale of battles.
But the best ever has to be Monty Python and the Holy Grail

My medieval history professor said, flat out to his class, that Monty Python and the Holy Grail was probably the most accurate general medieval movie relating to western europe, just for providing a view of important things, and arthurian legend, etc.

I'm inclined to agree.

[Nelson]

The recent HBO series ROME begins with a brief battle between a cohort and some Gauls. The legionaries are formed and the Gauls are to the front jeering and screaming before widely charging. The Romans had apparently already used their pila. As the fight progressed the centurion would occasionally blow a whistle to order the front rank to retire. It was the most convincing portrayal of legion combat I have ever seen.

The production values of this series are splendid though to be honest I have never read of whistles being used by the Romans.

[Aemilius Paulus]

The recent HBO series ROME begins with a brief battle between a cohort and some Gauls. The legionaries are formed and the Gauls are to the front jeering and screaming before widely charging. The Romans had apparently already used their pila. As the fight progressed the centurion would occasionally blow a whistle to order the front rank to retire. It was the most convincing portrayal of legion combat I have ever seen.

Yeah, that was the only Hollywood production that I have seen up to date and that was historically accurate. I absolutely loved it!

[Ibrahim]

My favorite ancient warfare movie would be Alexander. I liked a lot the documentary Becoming Alexander were it showed how Colin Farrell prepared for the role training with the kopis and all that.

Since many people are mentioning KoH, I think I can also say Alatriste. Both are great warfare movies.

you saw that too? that was good indeed.

but I was dissapointed at the location-Gaugamela was a plain, not a desert

and the depiction of the persians sucked-persians got discipline and look like europeans, not a rabble made of Berbers

yeah, I read Farrokh/ inspected parthians in EB yesterday. good writer and historian Farrokh was. I think I'm turning TPC