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Thread: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

  1. #3271
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Well, I think 'redistribution of wealth' doesn't play well in America. Sure, there are some people that think its the only ethical approach to, force equality, an equality of misery. Obama needs to shore that point up better. Telling a blue-collar plumber that he's going to come tax him to 'spread the wealth around a little' seems like a stupid, amateur mistake, almost like Obama is trying to close the gap a little to keep it competitive. Like Redleg said, all governements redistribute wealth. That's their function. Federal governments, by their very nature, are inherently collectivist and authoritarian. It's the degree to which they are that varies, and smart American ones don't proclaim it as a goal.

    I think the debate was a win for Obama. I think McCain did better on the scoresheet, by my count by a longshot, but this isn't a debate club at Oxford, it's about swaying voters. Obama just had to hold onto what he already has, McCain had the high bar of swaying voters. I don't think he did that. I'm not certain that he's going to move many people at all. Though I am happy to see that 3 weeks out, he finally started acting like he wants to win. Too bad its too late.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 10-16-2008 at 13:10.
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  2. #3272
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Progressive taxing (wich the vast majority of governments do) does not necessarily imply wealth redistribution. For that, you'd actually have to start giving poor people money in the form of subsidies.
    Personally I favour a slightly progressive tax (close to, or maybe even a full blown flat tax) and a fairly large non-tax threshold at the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki
    I don't know, would I be making more than $350 a week?

    You consider that rich?
    Last edited by Kralizec; 10-16-2008 at 15:09.

  3. #3273
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenring
    You consider that rich?
    For that money, he could be governor of a mid-sized african province, a fairly well-paid part-time US student, or a starting-wage fulltime WalMart worker (living at Mom's in California; on his own in Ohio).
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  4. #3274
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    If I were in the top tier I would evade my taxes or move. How dare someone say that they are entitled to 50% of my earnings?

    I hope your father lays off a small town. The analogy of "Obama is determined to see everyone in the back of the cart and as few people as possible pulling it."
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 10-16-2008 at 15:08.
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  5. #3275

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    If I were in the top tier I would evade my taxes or move. How dare someone say that they are entitled to 50% of my earnings?

    I hope your father lays off a small town. The analogy of "Obama is determined to see everyone in the back of the cart and as few people as possible pulling it."
    So according to that analogy, the vast majority of american's would just lazily sit around while the millionaires did all the work?

  6. #3276
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    So according to that analogy, the vast majority of American's would just lazily sit around while the millionaires did all the work?
    Anyone who isn't a cog in the wheel is well off. Personally, I'm a cog at the moment, but hopefully that will change (even though I get by pretty well since going out on my own). The affluent are responsible for everything we have one way or another - whether that is through the money that the government extorts from them, technological advancement, direct grants or personal consumption. It is important to encourage hard, outside the box work for everyone, but if they are incapable of it they shouldn't get a luxurious free ride.

    I don 't see the logic in increasing the cost for business when a large part of the problem is that we have an uncompetitive and costly workforce.

    Slash spending across the board and keep taxes the way that they are, witling away at it as things get better.

    Take the TV's out of the homes of the poor if you are going to tax the wealthy for being too hard working and successful. If all of our wealthy went to Mexico they would be better off because the cogs in the wheel wouldn't think they were driving or powering the damn cart.

    I'd like to see a flat income tax rate for everyone. If the government needed more they could request donations from everyone. This would force them to scale back spending and only over spend if they got donations for something the people were particularly interested in.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 10-16-2008 at 15:36.
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  7. #3277
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    The affluent are responsible for everything we have one way or another - whether that is through the money that the government extorts from them, technological advancement, direct grants or personal consumption.
    And you accuse the other guys of playing class warfare? Yikes.

    And "the money that the government extorts from them"? Again, yikes. To quote Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." I've paid them my entire adult life without getting on a soap box like that. Heck, because of loopy international rules, I sometimes have to pay Brit taxes and U.S. taxes. It sucks. But "extortion"? I guess in the same way that people are brutalized into obeying the law by the evil police, sure. In the same way that you didn't personally ask to be protected by the military, but they force you at gunpoint to accept their services. How dare they?

    I'm sorry, TuffStuff, but this post moves off into loopy land. I'm not even going to comment on your fervent wish that Americans will be put out of work to prove your economic philosophy.
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-16-2008 at 15:35.

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    And you accuse the other guys of playing class warfare? Yikes.

    And "the money that the government extorts from them"? Again, yikes. To quote Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." I've paid them my entire adult life without getting on a soap box like that. Heck, because of loopy international rules, I sometimes have to pay Brit taxes and U.S. taxes. It sucks. But "extortion"? I guess in the same way that people are brutalized into obeying the law by the evil police, sure. In the same way that you didn't personally ask to be protected by the military, but they force you at gunpoint to accept their services. How dare they?

    I'm sorry, TuffStuff, but this post moves off into loopy land. I'm not even going to comment on your fervent wish that Americans will be put out of work to prove your economic philosophy.
    What is your income tax rate? Why should the wealthy pay more of their income (by percentage) to taxes than you? It isn't like they benefit more from them - they are less likely to send their children to public schools or receive unemployment.

    The amount is already progressive, why does the rate need to be? Reduce or repeal deductions and keep it simple. Keep Federal spending simple, too. We can make due if we approach it fairly.
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  9. #3279
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    If I were in the top tier I would evade my taxes or move. How dare someone say that they are entitled to 50% of my earnings?
    I think that says more about your own personal views than the actual policy. Financially I would be far better off under McCain than under Obama. The Democrats in general have policies that will personally cost me a VERY large amount of money. However, I still vote Democrat because I know I can afford to lose the money they will take away from me and I think the benefits available to the nation from their proposed programs far outweigh any personal loss I will experience. I'm certain I do not speak for all people in my situation, but I know from personal experience that Obama is correct when he says that certain segments of the population can afford to be taxed more heavily.


  10. #3280
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    And you accuse the other guys of playing class warfare? Yikes.

    I'm sorry, TuffStuff, but this post moves off into loopy land. I'm not even going to comment on your fervent wish that Americans will be put out of work to prove your economic philosophy.
    My post is loopy? Your team say that they don't need their money because they are rich. Your team is moving forward with plans to take even more of it because of their success. The old adage "tax things if you want less of them" is suitable here. Do we want less affluence or hard work? Do we want less financial trading?

    Maybe if we taxed certain types of trading more - like derivatives or other kinds of pure speculation. We should reduce direct investment taxes and capital gains from legitimate activities to make our rates more competitive with other rising stars internationally. Keep lotto and gift rates high - anything that we want to reduce or not encourage.

    Basic earnings should be off limits and of equal rate for every taxable earner. We should fidget with the tertiary incomes that are either shadowy or unhealthy.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 10-16-2008 at 15:50.
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  11. #3281
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    I think that says more about your own personal views than the actual policy. Financially I would be far better off under McCain than under Obama. The Democrats in general have policies that will personally cost me a VERY large amount of money. However, I still vote Democrat because I know I can afford to lose the money they will take away from me and I think the benefits available to the nation from their proposed programs far outweigh any personal loss I will experience. I'm certain I do not speak for all people in my situation, but I know from personal experience that Obama is correct when he says that certain segments of the population can afford to be taxed more heavily.
    Wouldn't you prefer to donate it after a fair rate was taken? Better yet to the best organization that could make the most impact? Doesn't it frustrate you that we are in Iraq and that most likely your extra dollars are going towards the war and a still broken social security system?
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  12. #3282
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    My post is loopy? Your team say that they don't need their money because they are rich. Your team is moving forward with plans to take even more of it because of their success. The old adage "tax things if you want less of them" is suitable here. Do we want less affluence or hard work? Do we want less financial trading?

    Maybe if we taxed certain types of trading more - like derivatives or other kinds of pure speculation. We should reduce direct investment taxes and capital gains from legitimate activities to make our rates more competitive with other rising stars internationally. Keep lotto and gift rates high - anything that we want to reduce or not encourage.

    Basic earnings should be off limits and of equal rate for every taxable earner. We should fidget with the tertiary incomes that are either shadowy or unhealthy.
    by your logic people in europe would not try to get rich....but they do...so that house of cards falls pretty easily.
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  13. #3283
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    by your logic people in europe would not try to get rich....but they do...so that house of cards falls pretty easily.
    Then why not take more from them? People still smoke - so maybe taxes don't discourage smoking by that standard. People still kill, maybe the laws don't do anything to stop it.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 10-16-2008 at 16:08.
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  14. #3284
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Then why not take more from them? People still smoke - so maybe taxes don't discourage smoking by that standard. People still kill, maybe the laws don't do anything to stop it.
    I don´t follow your logic...

    in my opinion there is no amount of taxation that will make people abandon chemical vices....the max you will accomplish is push the business underground....the situation is not comparable to taxation over income.
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  15. #3285
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Wouldn't you prefer to donate it after a fair rate was taken? Better yet to the best organization that could make the most impact? Doesn't it frustrate you that we are in Iraq and that most likely your extra dollars are going towards the war and a still broken social security system?
    The honest truth is that if I received a tax cut, I would not end up devoting that entire tax cut to charities, nor do I believe that most people would. A tax cut simply will not result in an equal rise in income for charities, in my opinion. At the same time, while there are areas in which charities can utilize my money better, and thus offset this loss in 'public' income, there are also areas that they cannot. I live in an area with horrendous transportation problems. These transportation problems cause great hardships for many people, rich and poor. It impacts many peoples' quality of life and their own personal contentment. There is no way for me to donate money to a charity to improve the public rail system in DC, yet that is what I want improved the most around here.

    Sure, the government will be inefficient with my money and will waste tons of it and spend even more on things I don't approve of. However, this country and its government have treated me very well. I owe the US a great deal, and without government taxation, I believe that on a historical level I would be far worse off. The key in my opinion is not to remove money from government control, but rather to improve the way our government handles our money. I know many people think this is impossible and thus prefer to keep as much money as possible in private hands. However, I think it is possible to reform government in this manner and to make it a better custodian of my taxes.


  16. #3286
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    My post is loopy?
    Sorry to say so, friend, but yes, that post was loopy. And your follow-ups address none of the points raised, but instead bark off into the distance by raising new talking points. You've made no effort to defend your own point of view, just launched into attack mode on others.

    What's my tax rate? Pretty darn high, but then, who doesn't feel that way? I'm not clever with taxes, so I pay an accountant once a year to sort things out, which I consider money very well spent indeed, since I have something nutty like five different forms of income.*

    Would I abandon my nation if my rate were increased by three percent, as you suggest? No way. Will I flee to a tax haven in the Caribbean? Not on your life. Something to think about: An lot of very wealthy people choose to remain in the U.S., despite the tax rates. Why do you suppose that is?

    * True story: Whenever my accountant tells me what I'm going to owe from having some new project, and I get depressed, he tells me, "Mr. Lemur, it it better to have income than to not have income."
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-16-2008 at 16:37.

  17. #3287
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    How about Joe Plumber and the other crybabies started paying taxes in the first place?

    The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

    More than half of foreign companies and about 42 percent of U.S. companies paid no U.S. income taxes for two or more years in that period, the report said.

    During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion, according to Democratic Sens. Carl Levin of Michigan and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, who requested the GAO study.

    The report did not name any companies. The GAO said corporations escaped paying federal income taxes for a variety of reasons including operating losses, tax credits and an ability to use transactions within the company to shift income to low tax countries.

    With the U.S. budget deficit this year running close to the record $413 billion that was set in 2004 and projected to hit a record $486 billion next year, lawmakers are looking to plug holes in the U.S. tax code and generate more revenues.

    Dorgan in a statement called the report "a shocking indictment of the current tax system." Levin said it made clear that "too many corporations are using tax trickery to send their profits overseas and avoid paying their fair share in the United States."
    That's America's 'wealth creating class' for you.

    The real deal is that America's middle class pays the taxes for the rich and for the corporations. Obama doesn't even need to raise taxes - all he needs to do is close the loopholes for the billionaires and the corporations. Quite apart from levelling the taxation field for Joe Sixpack and Joe '250k+' Plumber' in this way, it would make America's deficit disappear overnight.
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  18. #3288
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Going back to the debate, this looks bad for JM:

    In politics it is generally not considered a good sign when voters are laughing at you, not with you. And by the end of the third and last presidential debate, the undecided voters who had gathered in Denver for Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg’s focus group were “audibly snickering” at John McCain’s grimaces, eye-bulging, and repeated references to “Joe the Plumber.”

    The group of 50 uncommitted voters should have at least been receptive to McCain—Republicans and Independents outnumbered Democrats in the group by almost 4 to 1, and they started the evening with much warmer responses to McCain than to his Democratic opponent, Barack Obama. But by the time it was all over, so few of them had declared their support for McCain that there weren’t enough for Greenberg to separate them into a post-debate focus group. Meanwhile, the Obama supporters had to assemble in two different rooms to keep their discussion groups manageable.

  19. #3289
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    GOOD FRICKIN' GRIEF -
    You guys know the story about the guy who yelled "kill him" when Obama was mentioned by a speaker at a Palin rally? The one story that went national to start the media narrative that McCain's followers are crazy, which led to democrat allegations of hate, racism, etc., at various actions by McCain?

    IT WAS FAKE. The Secret Service investigated, and not only did none of their agents in the crowd hear anyone yell 'kill him', but they could not find one single person who said they heard that EXCEPT for the reporter who initially wrote about it.

    GAAAHHHHH!!!!


    But gee, I bet that won't make the national media.

    I mean, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The media starts off with some event, then publishes corroborating stories and attacks by democrats, but when the whole genesis of the thing turns out to be false, they don't say a single word.

    The real deal is that America's middle class pays the taxes for the rich and for the corporations.
    Oh please, enough. The top 1% of people in this country pay 40% of the income taxes.

    And redistribution of wealth, especially the blatant tax-the-rich-higher-and-give-"rebates"(handouts)-to-the-poor is stupid. It's class warfare to buy votes, and just like giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish. Speading the wealth around - bah! Why give money to people who didn't earn it? I'm not talking about people who are starving/disabled/whatever and need it to live.

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And redistribution of wealth, especially the blatant tax-the-rich-higher-and-give-"rebates"(handouts)-to-the-poor is stupid. It's class warfare to buy votes, and just like giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish. Speading the wealth around - bah! Why give money to people who didn't earn it?
    Wait a minute, we've had an income tax in the U.S. since 1894, and it's been progressive since 1913. Why are you guys popping off about this now? (Oh, and please note that the last time the top bracket was 50% or greater was under Ronald Reagan from 1982–1986. Ever since it has hovered in the 30s.)

    If a progressive tax system is evil and Socialist and must be changed immediately, why was it tolerated when the Repubs held the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches? Can someone please explain this to me?
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-16-2008 at 16:58.

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    If a progressive tax system is evil and Socialist, why was it tolerated when the Repubs held the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches? Can someone please explain this to me?
    I don't remember any "Yes, it's great!" comments on progressive tax rates just because Bush was in office. Bush lowered tax rates and was praised for it by most conservatives. Obama is calling for the tax rates to be even more progressive and people voice opposition to it. Where's the confusion?
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    The heatedness of the rhetoric seems to be inverse to the amount of change suggested. Suddenly our Orgahs are opposed to progressive tax as a concept, something I don't recall hearing about when the Repubs had the reigns. Also note that the top bracket has it relatively good these days, if you go by historical comparison. We've been in a 20-year period of the top rate being in the 30s, which is fantastic. You have to go back to 1930 to find the top layer getting skimmed that lightly.

    I just don't see where this class warfare rhetoric is coming from. It ignores recent history as well as general history.
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-16-2008 at 17:03.

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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    We need an overhaul of the tax code. Im pretty sure I could get that bad boy down to ten pages and balance the budget. Its not that hard really dont spend more than you have. Texas does it every year!!!!!!!!!!1 Why cant the feds do it?

    Here's what I dont understand. Now may I remind you that as a god fearing red blooded American it is my duty to be distrustful of government but if the sheeple want there shiny defense budget and want health care THEY NEED TO REALIZE WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES. YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TO. This whole election I've heard the term scaple. I've got news for you we need a hatchet or more money. The American people are explifying the consumer culture at worst.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 10-16-2008 at 18:28.
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  24. #3294
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    The heatedness of the rhetoric seems to be inverse to the amount of change suggested. Suddenly our Orgahs are opposed to progressive tax as a concept, something I don't recall hearing about when the Repubs had the reigns. Also note that the top bracket has it relatively good these days, if you go by historical comparison. We've been in a 20-year period of the top rate being in the 30s, which is fantastic. You have to go back to 1930 to find the top layer getting skimmed that lightly.

    I just don't see where this class warfare rhetoric is coming from. It ignores recent history as well as general history.
    Actually, that's not entirely true. Xiahou and CR were all about Neil Bootz's Flat Tax when Huckabee was still in the race. Both were hoping Fred Thompson would adopt it, as that was the only thing Huckabee had going for him in their eyes.

    If you want to argue about the merits of progressive income taxes, you might have a point to make. But claiming that conservatives "small c", that is, didn't mind progressive income taxes under Republican administrations strains credulity.

    Why didn't the Republicans change it more than they did? In 2001, the Senate was Democrat, courtesy of 'jumpin' Jim Jeffords. In 2003-2006, the Republicans didn't have a fillibuster-proof majority.
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  25. #3295
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Wait a minute, we've had an income tax in the U.S. since 1894, and it's been progressive since 1913. Why are you guys popping off about this now? (Oh, and please note that the last time the top bracket was 50% or greater was under Ronald Reagan from 1982–1986. Ever since it has hovered in the 30s.)

    If a progressive tax system is evil and Socialist and must be changed immediately, why was it tolerated when the Repubs held the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches? Can someone please explain this to me?
    Lemur, man, I was arguing against redistribution of wealth, not necessarily progressive tax rates. You could have a progressive tax rate and no welfare, though as has been noted, it's not exactly some new thing that I'm not for the progressive tax rate.

    But the big thing about my post was supposed to be that the whole "kill him" being shouted at a Palin rally was false.


    CR
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  26. #3296
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Actually, that's not entirely true. Xiahou and CR were all about Neil Bootz's Flat Tax when Huckabee was still in the race. Both were hoping Fred Thompson would adopt it, as that was the only thing Huckabee had going for him in their eyes.
    Thanks for the correction, Don, and of course you're quite right. I don't recall this level of heat about the issue then, but you're entirely right that it was brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Lemur, man, I was arguing against redistribution of wealth, not necessarily progressive tax rates.
    Progressive income taxation is redistribution of wealth, by definition. We've lived with it for about a hundred years. We got through two world wars and the cold war with it. We invented rock and roll, the internal combustion engine and the computer with it.

    Heck, taxation is redistribution of wealth if you want to get down to it. If I pay a five cent tax on a bottle of Fresca, why, that's five cents I no longer have! That's five cents going to some state program I didn't personally approve of! And all because I wanted a Fresca! Can't a lemur enjoy the lemon-lime relaxation that comes in a can of Fresca without having his wealth redistributed?

    And what if I don't want to pay that five cent tax on my can of Fresca? It doesn't matter! The fascist police and the evil State will force me to pay it or go to prison. I am being extorted for that five cents. Where oh where can a lemur live free?
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-16-2008 at 18:58.

  27. #3297
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Where oh where can a lemur live free?
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  28. #3298
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Wouldn't you prefer to donate it after a fair rate was taken? Better yet to the best organization that could make the most impact? Doesn't it frustrate you that we are in Iraq and that most likely your extra dollars are going towards the war and a still broken social security system?
    The rich don't do this. This is mythical thinking. The idea that charity will make up for tax shortfall is simply without basis in U.S. reality. We donate less even than European countries which pay higher taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    What is your income tax rate? Why should the wealthy pay more of their income (by percentage) to taxes than you? It isn't like they benefit more from them - they are less likely to send their children to public schools or receive unemployment.

    The amount is already progressive, why does the rate need to be? Reduce or repeal deductions and keep it simple. Keep Federal spending simple, too. We can make due if we approach it fairly.
    I am not rich by any stretch, I'm not even near the top of middle class by either McCain OR Obama's measures, Tuff. I don't even reach halfway to the top of middle class by their markers now that I think about it.

    But I'm certainly not paying some piddly 3 or 5 or 7% of my earnings in taxes, either. It's not 50% but I am of course a single male who can't afford a house yet, which means I just take standardized deductions and have no major write-offs on my taxes. I don't know where the idea comes from that no one pays tax until they're super rich. That's really way off in mythical, magical thinking.

    The dialogue in America very much is black or white. You're either some struggling nobody who pays nothing in tax and gets all kinds of services for free, or you're some poor rich victim who gets taxed to death. It's b.s. The big majority of us fall in the middle.

    If you would care to start a discussion about a reworking of the pay structure in the United States to reflect reality, or when the rich start voluntary caps so that CEO's are not making 100,000 or 500,000x what their lowest paid-employee is making, I will jump on the copious tears over taxes on the rich bandwagon. If however you fully support the free market paradigm and simultaneously support the huge influence that wealth and money and lobbying have over our government through lobbying and campaign finances, then the rich need to pay their share. They are the small minority of the country enjoying the hugest benefits and the strongest influence over policy and government per capita, and enormous room to fit through various tax loopholes.

    From the CIA World Factbook:

    "The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $46,000. In this market-oriented economy, private individuals and business firms make most of the decisions, and the federal and state governments buy needed goods and services predominantly in the private marketplace. US business firms enjoy greater flexibility than their counterparts in Western Europe and Japan in decisions to expand capital plant, to lay off surplus workers, and to develop new products . . . The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."

    And from Wikipedia on the United States:

    "In 2005, 155 million persons were employed with earnings, of whom 80% had full-time jobs. The majority, 79%, were employed in the service sector. With about 15.5 million people, health care and social assistance is the leading field of employment. About 12% of workers are unionized, compared to 30% in Western Europe. The World Bank ranks the U.S. first in the ease of hiring and firing workers. Between 1973 and 2003, a year's work for the average American grew by 199 hours. Partly as a result, the U.S. maintains the highest labor productivity in the world. However, it no longer leads in productivity per hour as it did from the 1950s through the early 1990s; workers in Norway, France, Belgium, and Luxembourg are now more productive per hour. The U.S. ranks third in the World Bank's Ease of Doing Business Index. Compared to Europe, U.S. property and corporate income taxes are generally higher, while labor and, particularly, consumption taxes are lower."

    and again from Wikipedia, regarding income inequality:

    "A 2004 poll of 1,000 economists showed that the majority of economists favor "redistribution." A study by the Southern Economic Journal found that "71 percent of American economists believe the distribution of income in the US should be more equal, and 81 percent feel that the redistribution of income is a legitimate role for government." Data from the United States Department of Commerce and Internal Revenue Service indicate that income inequality has been increasing since the 1970s, whereas it had been declining during the mid 20th century. As of 2006, the United States had one of the highest levels of income inequality, as measured through the Gini index, among high income countries, comparable to that of some middle income countries such as Russia or Turkey, being one of only few developed countries where inequality has increased since 1980."



    Notice that the bottom 50 percentile of earners in the U.S. has not really moved in three decades, while the top 95th percentile has doubled.

    So, I consider an argument that progressive tax in the U.S. is somehow unethical or victimizing anyone to be illegitimate. If you want to talk about victimization let's talk about an economy which has kept 50% of the population's income static for three decades while enjoying enormous booming increases to the top tiers.

    Heck, taxation is redistribution of wealth if you want to get down to it. If I pay a five cent tax on a bottle of Fresca, why, that's five cents I no longer have! That's five cents going to some state program I didn't personally approve of! And all because I wanted a Fresca! Can't a lemur enjoy the lemon-lime relaxation that comes in a can of Fresca without having his wealth redistributed?
    The inhumanity! Actually, I don't think you are taxed because of the tax system, Lemur. You're just taxed because you're a Lemur. One thing all Americans can agree on: untaxed Lemurs are a problem!
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-16-2008 at 19:12.
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  29. #3299
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Oh please, enough. The top 1% of people in this country pay 40% of the income taxes.

    And redistribution of wealth, especially the blatant tax-the-rich-higher-and-give-"rebates"(handouts)-to-the-poor is stupid. It's class warfare to buy votes, and just like giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish. Speading the wealth around - bah! Why give money to people who didn't earn it? I'm not talking about people who are starving/disabled/whatever and need it to live.

    CR
    Oh, please you've been throwing around that number without proper analysis for far too long.

    We can start with this one:

    http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/
    A site perfectly in your taste I would guess.

    Yes, they "only" payed 29% of the total income taxes while geting about 15% of the income in 1999.

    No tax rise since that (it's tax cuts actually), the increase is because their share of total increased to 21,2% by 2005 (that's AGI, infamous for suffering from tax evasion):

    http://online.wsj.com/public/article...413557069.html

    So probably going by total wealth would be better then (they had to earn that wealth somehow).

    Now, pinning down how much of the total wealth this 1% owns is trickier, but this gives about 32,7% at 2001 (down from about 33,4% due to the market bubble). So about a third of the total wealth (and rapidly increasing the last few years according to the indications, even if the stockmarket crash will give a decrease).

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/o...on.2001.10.pdf

    When not counting in houses is that the top 1% own about 50% of the wealth, it's circulating, but I'm not finding any decent sources on that on the net.

    So, while they do pay slightly more taxes than their owned wealth, it's mostly because they are freaking rich. So please stop this "it's the burden of the rich man".
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  30. #3300
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I can't afford:

    1. A house
    2. Private insurance outside of my job
    3. Vacations (have not been on one since 2003)
    4. Two weeks in the hospital
    5. Grad school
    6. A non-gasoline vehicle (I keep asking Santa.)

    Yet, I pay about 24% of my income in taxes. Not counting of course things like sales tax. I don't pay property tax but that's because I can't afford any property.

    What can the top 1% of America not afford? I suppose Brazil might be a bit pricy. But other than that...
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-16-2008 at 19:26.
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