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Thread: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

  1. #3301
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I have 37 dollars to my name! HA ONE UPPED
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  2. #3302
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I have 37 dollars to my name! HA ONE UPPED
    *Koga and Strike disappear off-camera as Koga attempts to mug Strike for his $37*
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  3. #3303
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Oh, please you've been throwing around that number without proper analysis for far too long.

    We can start with this one:

    http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/
    A site perfectly in your taste I would guess.

    Yes, they "only" payed 29% of the total income taxes while geting about 15% of the income in 1999.
    According to more recent numbers(2005), the people in the top 1% make 18.1% of the total income, but pay 38.8% of the total income taxes. So it's not exactly 40%, but it's close.

    And if you want to argue that the rich can be taxed 'because they can afford it' you may as well go to the end of that argument and say the government has authority over all the money you don't need to live.

    Lemur, to me 'redistribution of wealth' means taking money from one group and giving it to programs to help a specific set of people, not to run programs that benefit everybody (the military, highways, etc.)

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  4. #3304
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    According to more recent numbers(2005), the people in the top 1% make 18.1% of the total income, but pay 38.8% of the total income taxes. So it's not exactly 40%, but it's close.

    And if you want to argue that the rich can be taxed 'because they can afford it' you may as well go to the end of that argument and say the government has authority over all the money you don't need to live.

    Lemur, to me 'redistribution of wealth' means taking money from one group and giving it to programs to help a specific set of people, not to run programs that benefit everybody (the military, highways, etc.)

    CR
    Who ever said the tax system was fair? The income distribution system isn't, so why should the tax system be?
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    "income distribution system"

    You mean, the laws of supply and demand? What are you measuring them against?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  6. #3306
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    The best, most efficient way to redistribute wealth is to encourage spending. An economy is not strong because it has lots of money, it's strong because it has lots of transactions. If rich people can be encouraged to spend their money or invest it within the economy, it works better than taxation and the inevitable waste that ensues. The problem lies in the flow of money out of the country via the trade deficit. If this can be equalized, we will be in much better shape at both ends of the spectrum.
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    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    "income distribution system"

    You mean, the laws of supply and demand? What are you measuring them against?

    CR
    Haha, yes, the economy has a great demand for people living off interest and dividends and leading socialite lifestyles.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Well no one's paying to employ them, are they? Income =/= wealth, you know.
    Are you going to answer the question? What's more fair than supply and demand? Your personal opinion on what it should be, based on...class warfare principles?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  9. #3309
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Well no one's paying to employ them, are they? Income =/= wealth, you know.
    Are you going to answer the question? What's more fair than supply and demand? Your personal opinion on what it should be, based on...class warfare principles?

    CR
    There's nothing fair about supply and demand. On the macro level you could just argue it's equally unfair across the board. :) And class warfare is created by capitalism, so acting like it's just me or any other "reactionary" inventing it up is markedly lacking in critical thought.

    You defend and advocate a system where 60% of the wealth is in 1% of the population, boom, class warfare. The only difference in the class warfare argument between you and me is that you're defending the 1% as somehow oppressed.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-16-2008 at 20:15.
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  10. #3310
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    Who ever said the tax system was fair? The income distribution system isn't, so why should the tax system be?
    Income isn't distributed, it's earned.
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  11. #3311
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Income isn't distributed, it's earned.
    Yeah, we saw those Wall Street CEO's "earn" their 300 million dollar compensation packages.
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  12. #3312
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Inflaming the base
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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  13. #3313
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    That is so true, Ronin, on so many levels. Thank you for the chuckle.

    And when Obama's talking about 'people like me can afford to pay more taxes...", ask yourself why he hasn't released any tax returns.
    Just sayin...

    Edit: Oopsie... pays to look a little deeper. Anyway, my point is, people like McCain and Obama never pay taxes. They write the laws, they don't follow them. That's for the rest of us.

    All of that being said, as I've said, I'm starting to lean more towards the guy that actually believes in subsidies and regulations and would have some understanding on what they're actually supposed to accomplish, as opposed to the guy that cynically throws 'em out there when all else has failed.

    As for the "Joe the Plummer" ropeline bit, I think the soundbyte media is doing Obama a terrible disservice on this one. He actually made an eloquent argument on this. It wasn't "well, brother, spread the wealth", he actually articulated a whole argument for the good side of socialism that while I don't agree with it, I can at least respect it. So, boo-hiss on the media.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 10-16-2008 at 20:27.
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  14. #3314
    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    i thought "kill him" was yelled at a mccain rally.

    edit: ah i looked into it, and it was supposed to have been said at a palin rally. i never paid much mind to these stories, as it's not really relevant to the issues.
    Last edited by Big_John; 10-16-2008 at 20:27.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  15. #3315
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    That is so true, Ronin, on so many levels. Thank you for the chuckle.

    And when Obama's talking about 'people like me can afford to pay more taxes...", ask yourself why he hasn't released any tax returns.

    Just sayin...
    This is more hypocritical than people who make more than him, saying people like themselves shouldnt' be paying so much tax?

    Besides, http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_b...-releases.html where the heck are you getting your info Don? Fox?
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-16-2008 at 20:28.
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  16. #3316
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    And when Obama's talking about 'people like me can afford to pay more taxes...", ask yourself why he hasn't released any tax returns.
    Someone's been getting too much Fox News in his diet ...

    Obama releases 2000–2006 tax returns.

  17. #3317
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    There's nothing fair about supply and demand.
    Says what philosophy? I'm not talking about outliers like bad CEOs getting golden parachutes, but the fundamentals of supply and demand.

    By what measure do you declare the laws of supply and demand to be unfair?

    It seems like the only truly fair system.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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  18. #3318
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    This is more hypocritical than people who make more than him, saying people like themselves shouldnt' be paying so much tax?
    More hypocritcal? No. Hypocrititcal? Yes. Although I'll beat you to the punch and it turns out Obama did release his tax records. Turns out he DOES know a lot about those loopholes he's always talking about closing.

    But that in and of itself isn't enough to disqualify him from getting my vote. Truth is, they're all crooks. The most honest man in Washington is just the leper with the most fingers left.
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  19. #3319
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Someone's been getting too much Fox News in his diet ...

    Obama releases 2000–2006 tax returns.
    HA! I edited my post before you posted. I found the same link though.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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  20. #3320
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Says what philosophy? I'm not talking about outliers like bad CEOs getting golden parachutes, but the fundamentals of supply and demand.

    By what measure do you declare the laws of supply and demand to be unfair?

    It seems like the only truly fair system.

    CR
    If there were not a trillion variables that screw up the pure implementation of supply and demand, including intentional measures to control supply, you might have a point.
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  21. #3321
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    HA! I edited my post before you posted. I found the same link though.
    Damn Damn Damn!
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Someone's been getting too much Fox News in his diet ...

    Obama releases 2000–2006 tax returns.

    If you're going to pillory me, at least be sure to use the appropriate right-wing propaganda machine. In this case, it was NRO that let me down.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 10-16-2008 at 20:32.
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  23. #3323
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    More hypocritcal? No. Hypocrititcal? Yes. Although I'll beat you to the punch and it turns out Obama did release his tax records. Turns out he DOES know a lot about those loopholes he's always talking about closing.

    But that in and of itself isn't enough to disqualify him from getting my vote. Truth is, they're all crooks. The most honest man in Washington is just the leper with the most fingers left.
    This being said, and put aside as nothing new (the waiting for the pure politician is like waiting for the messiah), there are real things we can base distinctions on. "They're all bad" is usually an excuse someone makes before voting for the worst of the two. :)
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  24. #3324
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    My only point is, as much as they like to be 'one of us', the ruling class never is, and only a naive fool believes for one minute that anybody in Washington aspires to be 'just like the people'. They write the laws, they know the trap doors, they know how to play the system. I wouldn't argue with a bookie about whether he's paying me the right vig when he comes up late on a payout, and I don't expect anybody in D.C. to pay taxes. The only difference in my mind is I'd give the bookie the benefit of the doubt. Much more honest type of crook.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 10-16-2008 at 20:35.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  25. #3325
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    My only point is, as much as they like to be 'one of us', the ruling class never is, and only a naive fool believes for one minute that anybody in Washington aspires to be 'just like the people'. They write the laws, they know the trap doors, they know how to play the system. I wouldn't argue with a bookie about whether he's paying me the right vig when he comes up late on a payout, and I don't expect anybody in D.C. to pay taxes.
    Don, we can't even BEGIN to compare Obama's connection to the "ruling class" after people like the Rodhams and McCains and Bushes either have, or attempted, to run the country for the last what 20 some years. To even pretend that Obama is as integrated into the so called "ruling class" as anyone else running for high office is really a huge stretch of revisionism about his background and how he made his money.

    I have MUCH more in common with Obama, as a middle income person, being just a generation away from poverty, than I do with any of the rich white faces that have run for office.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-16-2008 at 20:37.
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  26. #3326
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    Haha, yes, the economy has a great demand for people living off interest and dividends and leading socialite lifestyles.
    Well, actually, yes. This is where all of your loans comes from: money that has been stored in a bank so that it can be lent out to other people. It is also where a lot of business operating capital comes from: stock purchases. If you remove income from interests and investments, then you remove the incentive to save money in a bank and also to invest in businesses. When this happens... you get the current paralysis of the economic market that is causing the current global recession.

    The very concept of loans, debt, and interest is one of the things that has helped trade and technology expand exponentially since beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Without loans and investments, the entire global standard of living would be vastly lower than it is currently. So, just because people are living off of interest and dividends does not remotely mean that they are not contributing anything to the economy. In fact, the economy would be crippled without them.


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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    If you're going to pillory me, at least be sure to use the appropriate right-wing propaganda machine. In this case, it was NRO that let me down.
    My bad, mea culpa.

    Meanwhile, do I need to ask Inland to stay classy?


    The latest newsletter by an Inland Republican women's group depicts Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama surrounded by a watermelon, ribs and a bucket of fried chicken, prompting outrage in political circles.

    The October newsletter by the Chaffey Community Republican Women, Federated says if Obama is elected his image will appear on food stamps -- instead of dollar bills like other presidents. The statement is followed by an illustration of "Obama Bucks" -- a phony $10 bill featuring Obama's face on a donkey's body, labeled "United States Food Stamps. [...]

    The group's president, Diane Fedele, said she plans to send an apology letter to her members and to apologize at the club's meeting next week. She said she simply wanted to deride a comment Obama made over the summer about how as an African-American he "doesn't look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills."
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-16-2008 at 20:38.

  28. #3328
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    GOOD FRICKIN' GRIEF -
    You guys know the story about the guy who yelled "kill him" when Obama was mentioned by a speaker at a Palin rally? The one story that went national to start the media narrative that McCain's followers are crazy, which led to democrat allegations of hate, racism, etc., at various actions by McCain?

    IT WAS FAKE. The Secret Service investigated, and not only did none of their agents in the crowd hear anyone yell 'kill him', but they could not find one single person who said they heard that EXCEPT for the reporter who initially wrote about it.

    GAAAHHHHH!!!!


    But gee, I bet that won't make the national media.
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  29. #3329
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    My bad, mea culpa.

    Meanwhile, do I need to ask Inland to stay classy?


    The latest newsletter by an Inland Republican women's group depicts Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama surrounded by a watermelon, ribs and a bucket of fried chicken, prompting outrage in political circles.

    The October newsletter by the Chaffey Community Republican Women, Federated says if Obama is elected his image will appear on food stamps -- instead of dollar bills like other presidents. The statement is followed by an illustration of "Obama Bucks" -- a phony $10 bill featuring Obama's face on a donkey's body, labeled "United States Food Stamps. [...]

    The group's president, Diane Fedele, said she plans to send an apology letter to her members and to apologize at the club's meeting next week. She said she simply wanted to deride a comment Obama made over the summer about how as an African-American he "doesn't look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills."
    Can't they get ANYTHING right?

    Poi and kalua pig, with some macaroni salad and rice. Maybe some lau lau too. And koolaid, hell no, fruit punch. Even pasty white tourists who've been to Hawaii know that.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-16-2008 at 20:40.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    If there were not a trillion variables that screw up the pure implementation of supply and demand, including intentional measures to control supply, you might have a point.
    And I ask again; what measure are you using to declare the laws of supply and demand unfair?

    Those "trillion variables" you complain about are part of supply and demand, and its why command economies and socialism fail, because the government cannot account for them all.

    Tincow correctly points out that people with wealth in banks is essential for the world economy.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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