Some like 'em young...

[Narog]

The daughter of my best general is only 12 and already she has a husband (a 21 year-old with a very large beard)!
Luckily the pedo husband is out campaigning with the father-in-law (the previously mentioned general) in a very remote part of the kingdom. By the time he returns his wife will be ripe and ready at the age of 15!

[Valion]

Well in the ancient world it's not uncommon for this sort of thing to happen, at best getting married to a girl that young is mostly political.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Others would say you approved; moreover that it is a political marriage you (the faction leader) very well might have arranged?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

These kinds of state marriages were common even in the 18th century. IIRC then the last French kings wife Marie-Antoinette were 14 when she and Louis married. Also, usually there was a deal between the father and his daughters soon to be husband that they can't do you-know-what until she is in certain age. These were more states-marriages than anything else.
I have also read that this was not that common in the lower classes though and commoners usually didn't arrange these kinds of marriages.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Wasn't it somewhat normal in the western civilizations to marry the girl after puberty though? I'm sure there were exceptions, but I always thought that the early childhood marriages were more common in countries such as India or African nations.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Yes it was but it did happen that even small kids were married to each other just to get legitimate claims on someones throne. Though, I'm not an expert on it and this is just something I remember drom the books I've read.

[SwissBarbar]

actually for a girl of the roman high society it would be a shame not to be married. Girls were given away by their fathers with 12-14 years, boys with 18. A marriage was a partnership of convenience, mostly planned by the parents years before the actual wedding. Infertility was one of the grounds for divorce. Feelings dit NOT matter! Actually, love as a reason of wedlock is a very young phenomenon in history of civilization.

in my opinion, the fact, that girls were mostly named after her fathers family name - at least in the time of the republic (gaius iulius caesars daughters name was iulia, the daughter of Gaius Antonius Hybrida was named Antonia etc.etc) shows that they were his property, so he could marry them to whom seems best for the family

[desert]

I'm sorry, I had to do it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm sorry, I had to do it.

NEW SIG!

[Megas Methuselah]

NEW SIG!

You serious?!

I have also read that this was not that common in the lower classes though and commoners usually didn't arrange these kinds of marriages.

Out of curiosity, how did commoners go about with this sort of business, then?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

AFAIK this was absolutely the norm rather than the exception. In the medieval they married their children at 6 and 7, at least that's what I have heard.

Unfortunately the game doesn't care so much on female fertility, which means that I roleplay that if a girl under 17 or above 40 produces offspring, it's a bastard from one of the general's mistresses, which was also very common iirc.

[desert]

Unfortunately the game doesn't care so much on female fertility, which means that I roleplay that if a girl under 17 or above 40 produces offspring, it's a bastard from one of the general's mistresses, which was also very common iirc.

But a 14-year old girl could easily bear children.

[Celtic_Punk]

a girl in my class back in grade 6 got pregnant. Girls become fertile at the age of roughly 12 - give or take a year.

before you ask the fucko got arrested. sadly the girl wasnt caught in time, and she actually had the baby... dont know what happened though... Regardless, this kind of thing was common in ancient times.

[Olaf The Great]

a girl in my class back in grade 6 got pregnant. Girls become fertile at the age of roughly 12 - give or take a year.

before you ask the fucko got arrested. sadly the girl wasnt caught in time, and she actually had the baby... dont know what happened though... Regardless, this kind of thing was common in ancient times.

Friend of mine, same thing, age 13, had baby when she was 14.

Oh and anyway, I don't think there was a deal with King Louie and Marie, it was because he had painful Phimosis.

[Aemilius Paulus]

What you have to take into account is that it is proven that nowadays girls reach puberty earlier than ever before. Some say it is due to certain hormones present in our foods that mimic human hormones but regardless of what it is, girls become fertile very early and it is a proven, much-observed and recorded fact. Before, girls normally reached puberty at 13-14, that is assuming that girls reached puberty in the Antiquity as they did in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is possible that humans have changed since then as well, although unlikely.

[russia almighty]

Or, due to it not being observed scientifically like we do now, it could have been about the same.


You also need to take in account diet period. The average modern european/americans caloric intake>>>>>>a peasant from the middle ages, or plebian of the classical era. More calories in the formative years means an increased height, less chance of certain diseases, etc.

And of course, puberty hitting earlier.


I wouldn't doubt, a noblewomen who had a better than most diet in her era, hit puberty around the same age as a girl in our times does (least in the west)

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I have to agree with Aemilius Paulus. Especially in the more "civilized" countries like Rome, the average diet wasn't exactly delightful, it consisted mostly of bread or anything made of cereals. We know from the upper classes of Egyptian society, that they had extremely bad teeth due to the sand which enters the flour upon the process of grinding. And that was the upper class.

Of course we cannot tell with certainty, but I don't think that girls reached puberty at such a young age as today. Even if upperclass girls weren't malnourished, I doubt that it would be at the age of 12. I think that the house of the parents had a close watch and wouldn't allow inappropiate behaviour.

And last but not least, having a mistress is nothing to be looked down at, and a much better imagination for me than a twelve year old giving birth.

[Atilius]

From Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, entry for Matrimonium:

Towards the close of the republic it had become customary to betroth young girls when they were yet children; Augustus therefore limited the time during which a man was allowed to continue betrothed to a girl (Suet. Aug. 34), and forbade men to be betrothed to girls before the latter had completed their tenth year, so that the age of pubertas being twelve years, a girl might not be compelled to be betrothed longer than two years (Dion Cass. LIV. p609, Steph.)

and

...as the foundation of the notion of pubertas was physical capacity for sexual intercourse, there could be no pubertas if there was a physical incapacity.

I offer no opinion on what is meant by physical capacity for sexual intercourse and simply note that even the law of Augustus leaves open the possibility that a girl might be married at age 12.

[Lysimachos]

We know from the upper classes of Egyptian society, that they had extremely bad teeth due to the sand which enters the flour upon the process of grinding. And that was the upper class.

It probably didn't help that they used honey in their tooth paste

[Terraforce]

I prefer to give my daughters roles. I don't marry them of until they reach 18 or 19.

[Cadwalader]

I marry her away any day I like, but then I immediately send her new husband to the provinces.
Won't have punks like that near my daughters.

[Mulceber]

I marry her away any day I like, but then I immediately send her new husband to the provinces.
Won't have punks like that near my daughters.

Technically, Cadwalader, I think if you send him to the provinces, his new bride goes with him - since when his children come of age they automatically appear in the city he's governing. I could be wrong, but I think that's what EB is trying to represent. -M

[Terror]

Strange, i've never had that occurred. Every time an girl in my family tree reaches the age of 15 or 16, i get an marriage proposal, and if i decline i will get a new one roughly a year later. But nobody of younger age has had married in my campaigns.

OT: A 14 year old guy i knew (was on the same school) made an 13 year girl pregnant, she had the baby, and they say it wasn't an accident (though i really doubt that..)

[Cbvani]

Or, due to it not being observed scientifically like we do now, it could have been about the same.


You also need to take in account diet period. The average modern european/americans caloric intake>>>>>>a peasant from the middle ages, or plebian of the classical era. More calories in the formative years means an increased height, less chance of certain diseases, etc.

And of course, puberty hitting earlier.


I wouldn't doubt, a noblewomen who had a better than most diet in her era, hit puberty around the same age as a girl in our times does (least in the west)

I too wonder about the role increased caloric intake plays into all this.
In my campaign, one of my 22 year-old generals has a 12 (or whatever the minimum age is) year old wife.... and they have a baby. I'm considering sending him to a backwater province as punishment.

[ezekiel2517]

I too wonder about the role increased caloric intake plays into all this.
In my campaign, one of my 22 year-old generals has a 12 (or whatever the minimum age is) year old wife.... and they have a baby. I'm considering sending him to a backwater province as punishment.

maybe he had it with his mistress and it's all a cover-up

[Cadwalader]

Technically, Cadwalader, I think if you send him to the provinces, his new bride goes with him - since when his children come of age they automatically appear in the city he's governing. I could be wrong, but I think that's what EB is trying to represent. -M

Right. So what I need is some helpful Germans..

[desert]

So what I need is some helpful Germans..

What exactly does that mean?

[bovi]

Harmful Germans.

[gamegeek2]

Historically, I think mainly the upper classes (AKA your family members and the nobles) married their daughters off early. I think the lower classes' marriages weren't as political, as in many societies inter-class marriages were barely unacceptable anyways.

Oh, and I don't think there are any pregnant girls at my high school. Then again, it's a big school, so what do I know...