No better than them

[KarlXII]

You'll have to explain.

I thought you knew.

[PanzerJaeger]

I thought you knew.

You'll have to explain.

[KarlXII]

You'll have to explain.

So you're one of them denial ones eh?

[Sarmatian]

Completely irrelevant nonsense,

Well, you can't expect better from me. After all, I'm at a racial disadvantage. On the bright side, as much as I try to find your posts insulting, I can't. But they're amusing as hell.

[KarlXII]

Well, you can't expect better from me. After all, I'm at a racial disadvantage. On the bright side, as much as I try to find your posts insulting, I can't. But they're amusing as hell.

I wonder if this is all an elaborate and large scale trolling.

[Koga No Goshi]

I wonder if this is all an elaborate and large scale trolling.

No, I think he really believes it.

[KarlXII]

No, I think he really believes it.

So he is one of them self denying Nazis?

[PanzerJaeger]

So you're one of them denial ones eh?

No, never. I think a lot of the "facts" regarding the Holocaust are in reality estimations, but I have never denied the large scale imprisonment and murder of Jews and other minority groups under the Nazis. I'm not interested in painting the Nazis as anything other than what they were, and that applies to the allies as well.

Well, you can't expect better from me. After all, I'm at a racial disadvantage. On the bright side, as much as I try to find your posts insulting, I can't. But they're amusing as hell.

Thats good, as there is nothing in my posts that anyone should find insulting or offensive; unless, of course, you are insulted by reality. Everything I've posted is simply fact.


Edit: The mocking is somewhat juvenile. I've posted my opinions, backed up by facts. Nobody likes to hear that the good guys weren't really that good, but is a little maturity too much to ask for?

[KarlXII]

Thats good, as there is nothing in my posts that anyone should find insulting or offensive; unless, of course, you are insulted by reality. Everything I've posted is simply fact.

Wow I didn't think you'd allow the Slav to speak

[LittleGrizzly]

Panzer are you trying to argue a moral equivelence between the nazis and the allies, you'll find alot of sympathy from me with regards to the bad things the allies did and sympathy for the way the nazi actions are looked at, as i always say when it comes to conflicts like this, there is no black and white just a hell of a lot of gray, but even taking a step back and looking at things from all pov's not just the victors, the nazis were far far worse than the allies...

the only point thats debateable (imo) is the atomic bombs on japan, if they were merely to show off to the soviets then that is truely detestable and would bring the allied moral superority down hugely but i think even assuming the bombs were just to show off that still leaves a gap compared to all the nazi crimes....

I get where you are coming from with the belief thing, as in its less evil to kill if you think your doing it for the right reason, but then you have to take into account what america believed...

and by that i mean, america was probably thinking by showing itself as such a great power and making russia a little scared that it could secure its own democracy and secure democracys abroad, it could generally push the world in a much better direction, and when you think of it this way.... it seems less worse

[KarlXII]

Nobody likes to hear that the good guys weren't really that good, but is a little maturity too much to ask for?

Hard to take you seriously anymore, PJ. Dave is still funny, but for you...it's a little dry.

There is no such thing as a good guy, every good guy did something bad. But trying to compare it to the evil the good guy fought against is really spitting in the face of what the good guy fought for. In this case, trying to make the Allies into the Nazis by mentioning Dresden, while you have Coventry and Auschwitz being shuffled behind your back.

When it comes to war crimes and their severity, I believe in quantity over quality. The forced deportation of Germans was wrong, however, it is not on the same scale as the forced deportation of undesirables simply because the former were Germans.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That isn't a statistic thats a very vague guess .

That's the sane minimum and the sane maxiumum. Draw your own conclusions, but it's still within that range.

Protested it, didn't vote for Bush.

Well, a lot of Germans didn't vote for Hitler, and a lot of Germans didn't have the freedom to protest without repercussions like you have in America. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that in America a tool known as secret police isn't commonly used.

Basically, it comes down to this. Presume that the average German knew exactly what was going on, in all details, everything. I am not saying that is true or not, just presuming. Now, what are you going to do? Protect your house and family, or protest and be beheaded. Maybe even some guilt by association for your family.

Stalin and Hitler aren't comparable.

Two mass murdering megalomaniacs. Pretty comparable to me.

Russian declassified archives show that the number is much lower but still enough to make any sane and civilized person's head spin.

Apparently there were files missing or destroyed when the archives were opened. I'll try to find a source, because I know you'll ask for one.

And considering legacy, Stalin found Russia with wooden ploughs, centuries behind the west and left it as a nuclear armed, space faring superpower. Hitler found Germany in crisis and left it in ruins.

No argument with that. A superpower full of Gulags, some starvation, and mass murder, but a superpower, yes.

Anyway, since when is one dictator excuse for another?

Never. I don't think even Panzer is arguing in any way that the crimes of the Allies in any way vindicates the Axis of the terrible atrocities it committed - I don't think anyone here believes that. Heck, the point that one crime doesn't excuse another is EXACTLY - I repeat, EXACTLY - the point I'm trying to make.

I'm glad the Allies won. It was good for humanity, it was good for democracy, it was good for the world. But being what most people, including myself, believe was the better side doesn't mean you're automatically angelic. If anyone believes the Second World War was completely black and white, I have a bridge to sell them.

EDIT: And Panzer is right - the mocking is getting really juvenile. He's not "detracting" from the severity of the crimes the Axis committed by pointing out that they weren't the only ones. He's not a "Nazi" or a "supremacist" for believing that some innocent people may (*gasp*) have been killed by the "good guys."

[Sarmatian]

Thats good, as there is nothing in my posts that anyone should find insulting or offensive; unless, of course, you are insulted by reality. Everything I've posted is simply fact.


Edit: The mocking is somewhat juvenile. I've posted my opinions, backed up by facts. Nobody likes to hear that the good guys weren't really that good, but is a little maturity too much to ask for?

I don't have problems with the facts, only with your interpretation of said facts. Wars are not about good guys vs bad guys. In wars there are only two sides. But if there is a war in the history of humanity that can be perceived as good guys vs bad guys it's WW2. What point are you trying to make? That Allies and Soviets committed crimes? True, you won't find much argument from me there. I spoke about it some threads here at the .Org. That Germans were mistreated in many European countries after the war? Also true, I spoke about how I perceive deportation of Germans from Yugoslavia morally wrong. That the main purpose of Dresden and Tokyo bombing was spreading of fear rather than a military goal? Once again true, and yet another thing I spoke about here.

But to think that all this somehow absolves Nazi Germany from guilt and from all its crime is insulting and hilarious at the same time. Do you think that Yugoslavian Germans being deported with compensation can be compared to what Nazis did in Yugoslavia? You're defending a country that followed an ideology in which it was not only acceptable to exterminate other nations based on their genes or religion but also normal and even desirable. When Japan surrendered to the US, the killings stopped. When a country surrender to Nazi Germany it didn't stop. In fact, that's when the killings truly started. Maybe most of the Germans back then didn't know about Holocaust or sick ideology that Hitler & co pursued, but I have some news for you - we're not in the 1940's anymore and we know about it. What's with the need to defend it? Germany turned its back to Nazism, renounced it and moved on as only a great nation could. You're right when you say that Germany shouldn't be more ashamed than any other nation. I agree with you there. I don't think of Nazis as Germans. And frankly, I believe than anyone defending Nazis is insulting Germans as much as he is insulting the victims...

[KarlXII]

I don't have problems with the facts, only with your interpretation of said facts. Wars are not about good guys vs bad guys. In wars there are only two sides. But if there is a war in the history of humanity that can be perceived as good guys vs bad guys it's WW2. What point are you trying to make? That Allies and Soviets committed crimes? True, you won't find much argument from me there. I spoke about it some threads here at the .Org. That Germans were mistreated in many European countries after the war? Also true, I spoke about how I perceive deportation of Germans from Yugoslavia morally wrong. That the main purpose of Dresden and Tokyo bombing was spreading of fear rather than a military goal? Once again true, and yet another thing I spoke about here.

But to think that all this somehow absolves Nazi Germany from guilt and from all its crime is insulting and hilarious at the same time. Do you think that Yugoslavian Germans being deported with compensation can be compared to what Nazis did in Yugoslavia? You're defending a country that followed an ideology in which it was not only acceptable to exterminate other nations based on their genes or religion but also normal and even desirable. When Japan surrendered to the US, the killings stopped. When a country surrender to Nazi Germany it didn't stop. In fact, that's when the killings truly started. Maybe most of the Germans back then didn't know about Holocaust or sick ideology that Hitler & co pursued, but I have some news for you - we're not in the 1940's anymore and we know about it. What's with the need to defend it? Germany turned its back to Nazism, renounced it and moved on as only a great nation could. You're right when you say that Germany shouldn't be more ashamed than any other nation. I agree with you there. I don't think of Nazis as Germans. And frankly, I believe than anyone defending Nazis is insulting Germans as much as he is insulting the victims...

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer are you trying to argue a moral equivelence between the nazis and the allies, you'll find alot of sympathy from me with regards to the bad things the allies did and sympathy for the way the nazi actions are looked at, as i always say when it comes to conflicts like this, there is no black and white just a hell of a lot of gray, but even taking a step back and looking at things from all pov's not just the victors, the nazis were far far worse than the allies...

This is what I can't seem to wrap my head around. What is difference between the Holocaust and the allied mass death from above? Both events were the completely unnecessary and unjustified killing of innocents. In the case of the Germans, many involved truly believed they were doing the right thing - for the greater good, as nonsensical as it seems today. In the case of the allies, it was for terror or show, as the innocents they decimated were of defeated, impotent nations.

Hard to take you seriously anymore, PJ. Dave is still funny, but for you...it's a little dry.

I'm sorry to hear that.

In this case, trying to make the Allies into the Nazis by mentioning Dresden, while you have Coventry and Auschwitz being shuffled behind your back.

I'm not trying to make anyone into anything. You should ask yourself why the mentioning of simple facts gets you so upset.

When it comes to war crimes and their severity, I believe in quantity over quality.

While this may hold some merit if they allies had, say, killed only a few hundred people during isolated incidents, when the numbers reach into the millions, does it really matter? And if pure numbers are all you're interested in, the communists are your game. You can take your pick between the Russian or Asian variants, both killed far more than Germany.

I don't have problems with the facts, only with your interpretation of said facts. Wars are not about good guys vs bad guys. In wars there are only two sides. But if there is a war in the history of humanity that can be perceived as good guys vs bad guys it's WW2. What point are you trying to make? That Allies and Soviets committed crimes? True, you won't find much argument from me there. I spoke about it some threads here at the .Org. That Germans were mistreated in many European countries after the war? Also true, I spoke about how I perceive deportation of Germans from Yugoslavia morally wrong. That the main purpose of Dresden and Tokyo bombing was spreading of fear rather than a military goal? Once again true, and yet another thing I spoke about here.

We seem to be on the same page so far...

But to think that all this somehow absolves Nazi Germany from guilt and from all its crime is insulting and hilarious at the same time.

Here's where you are misunderstanding me. By bringing the Allies down to their historical reality, I am not bringing the Nazi's up.

Maybe most of the Germans back then didn't know about Holocaust or sick ideology that Hitler & co pursued, but I have some news for you - we're not in the 1940's anymore and we know about it. What's with the need to defend it?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point. When judging past actions, it is essential to preserve historical context. My overarching goal in this discussion has not been to defend anyone, but to highlight the fact that no side would stand up in today's evolved moral environment. I take no pleasure in dredging up unflattering facts about the Allies, but sometimes the truth hurts. I owe it to my ancestors to at least make an effort to understand their condition and mindset, and so does history. Its simply not good enough to say the Nazis were evil and the Allies were good. I am sorry, but history is never that black and white.

IMO, it is important that people understand the reality of the German situation in the Second World War, and the reality of the Allied situation. Fact is - the Germans may have started the war, but the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms. The fact that the Germans committed war crimes did not force the allies to do the same. They did so of their own valition, and when their enemies were already defeated. There is no argument that can be made to justify what they did to the women and children of their defeated enemies, just as there is no argument that can be made to justify the Holocaust. We can only look at both situations in context. Most Germans did not know of the extent of the Holocaust and many of those that did believed what they were doing was for the greater good of their society, while many in the Allied populace reveled in bloodlust and didn't mind showing off their strength at the expense of their vanquished foes. If you want to take that statement of fact as some sort of defense of Nazism, that's your misunderstanding; and you wouldn't be the first...

[KarlXII]

While this may hold some merit if they allies had, say, killed only a few hundred people during isolated incidents, when the numbers reach into the millions, does it really matter? And if pure numbers are all you're interested in, the communists are your game. You can take your pick between the Russian or Asian variants.

And you'd never see me in a thread about the gulags and executions under Stalin trying to say "WELL THE NAZIS DID IT TOO". But this is not a thread about the killings under Communist countries, so it is irrelevant.

The difference between the Allies and Germans is, as already mentioned, when the Germans conquered a country, the deportations and mass exterminations began, when the Allies liberated countries, only the top leadership were put to a fair trial. And it's true, Dresden was an unnecessary and shameful act, Nagasaki and Hiroshima, well, I'm not too certain, maybe a different target could have been chosen, but the invasion of Japan was already being planned, and it is realistic to believe suffering and death on both sides would reach very high numbers.

[PanzerJaeger]

And you'd never see me in a thread about the gulags and executions under Stalin trying to say "WELL THE NAZIS DID IT TOO".

That's because you won't ever see any threads about the gulags or executions under Stalin.

The difference between the Allies and Germans is, as already mentioned, when the Germans conquered a country, the deportations and mass exterminations began, when the Allies liberated countries, only the top leadership were put to a fair trial.

That depends on what allied nation you're talking about. Many enthusiastically cleansed themselves of ethnic Germans and/or murdered German POWs; and no allied nation gave the Germans anything close to a fair trial. Even assuming you're only discussing the Western Allies, discounting the bombing of Axis cities simply because they ran out of population centers to decimate and won the war is highly selective morality if I've ever seen it. If the Germans had accomplished their goals, the Holocaust would have eventually had to come to an end as well..

[KarlXII]

the Holocaust would have eventually had to come to an end as well..

At what cost? Sure, it may have stopped, once they ran out of Jews to gas.

[Koga No Goshi]

Let's look at this another way.

Look at Germany today. And the status of the German people.

Would that be a good representation of the enemies of the Reich if Hitler had won the war?

Very simple question, IMHO.

[KarlXII]

Let's look at this another way.

Look at Germany today. And the status of the German people.

Would that be a good representation of the enemies of the Reich if Hitler had won the war?

Very simple question, IMHO.

And a very good one.

[LittleGrizzly]

This is what I can't seem to wrap my head around. What is difference between the Holocaust and the allied mass death from above?

For me personally it comes down to intent, with the holocaust the nazis tried to wipe out several groups of people forever, with the mass death, america (im thinking of the nukes specifically here) was trying to force a surrender whilst showcasing thier new weapon (and to go further down the reasoning you could argue they wanted respect/fear to help advance thier democratic ideals...

In the case of the Germans, many involved truly believed they were doing the right thing - for the greater good, as nonsensical as it seems today.

So im sure did the vast majority of allied civilians, weren't the atom bombs sold as the alternative to invasion, i have had debates on this board regarding the issue and a fair few american members (good few european members too if memory serves) were behind this theory, which argues that more lives would have been lost in a potential invasion. So in that people thought they were doing the right thing i think think theres at least equality...

Im sure your not this reasonable about the 'bad guys' in discussions about 'islamic terrorism' i may be off the mark a little here but the impression im getting is you seem far more understanding of germans in nazi germany than palestinians

[Incongruous]

I find it amusing that some people are willing to overlook history, certain land sin what are Poland had been Germanic in culture for hundreds and hundreds of years, as is already said most of whom were not conquering warriors.

The expulsion was the final solution of the Eastern European governments, who had resented these poeple for wel over fifty years for being different. It was quite simply racism of, that some of you are willing to accept this illustrates for me, at least, a fundamental lack of humanity.

It was Western backed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, nothing can or should justify that, I am shocked that some on these boards who profess to be Christians take no issue with that.

[Koga No Goshi]

I find it amusing that some people are willing to overlook history, certain land sin what are Poland had been Germanic in culture for hundreds and hundreds of years, as is already said most of whom were not conquering warriors.

The expulsion was the final solution of the Eastern European governments, who had resented these poeple for wel over fifty years for being different. It was quite simply racism of, that some of you are willing to accept this illustrates for me, at least, a fundamental lack of humanity.

It was Western backed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, nothing can or should justify that, I am shocked that some on these boards who profess to be Christians take no issue with that.

You have been doing some seriously selective reading if you think anyone was saying that the expulsion of ethnic Germans or their mistreatment was a good thing or a moral thing. All anyone has argued is that within the greater context of WWII to say that these things happening makes the Allies and the Nazies equally immoral is a huge stretch.

[Incongruous]

Uhuh, what was it that Strike was saying?

No your right, the Allies did not back systematic evil, they simply stumbled into it for reasons of expediency. A character flaw which is current in the West of today.

[HoreTore]

We're only fooling ourselves if we try to distance ourselves from the crimes committed by the nazi's "because it was done by them evil nazi's". It wasn't just them. We all tried out the racial hygiene thingy. We all listed different groups of humans on a scale from "worthless" to "godlike". And some of it continued well after 1945, like gypsies being neutered and put in missionary camps to "turn the savages into humans" in Norway in the 60's(or sometime around then).

We've all done it. The nazi's just put the theory to the test on a much larger scale.

[Brenus]

“Completely irrelevant nonsense”: Sarmatian belongs to a “race” which was “genocide”. Read about Jasenovac and Stari Gradica…

“Everything I've posted is simply fact”: Interpretation of facts, in a very well known path by all the “deniers”. All what you are actually writing was said by Le Pen in France: detail of History (well footnote for you), victims are only estimation, the Allies were guilty as well and comparing an aggressive state to all others.
I know you don’t care, but can I remind you that the USA were attacked by Japan and Germany?

About communist, they killed more nazi than every body else. In fact, the communist lands were the graves of Nazis. Millions of them. Each time my communist grand father blow-up a nazi train he killed some.

“If the Germans had accomplished their goals, the Holocaust would have eventually had to come to an end as well..” They would have find somebody else to slaughter… And what about the perpetual slavery of all the Slavs?

“The nazi's just put the theory to the test on a much larger scale” JUST? And I think THAT is the difference. THEY put the THEORY in PRACTICE. I don’t care if you hate French, I will start to care if you start to exterminate.

[Husar]

Leroy Williams rapes and murders white women for several years. Then the Tennesee police catches him. They fry his arse on the chair.
Does this make the US goverment his moral equal? Are the people of Tennessee now no better than this black serial killer?
I mean, they are murderers too by putting him on the chair. And they have a history of racism too, just like our black serial killer.

Or is there a difference?

Noone is at fault here, not the killer and not the state, I'm just wondering why the state uses juries because clearly:

[...]the defeated normally have what is coming to them[...]

I cut out the 4chan language because that sounds like a desperate attempt at ridicule.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Uhuh, what was it that Strike was saying?

No your right, the Allies did not back systematic evil, they simply stumbled into it for reasons of expediency. A character flaw which is current in the West of today.

Agreed, the talk of "the Germans" really surprised, even shocked, me as well.

I'm not sure why some people will not acknowledge the suffering of many Germans in eastern Europe. I don't know, maybe its out of a paranoid fear that those doing that are somehow neo-Nazis.

It wasn't all Black and White. The Axis nations (not all their people) were just a much, much darker shade of grey.

[Husar]

Welcome to the grey side!

[Sarmatian]

We seem to be on the same page so far...

So far, yes.

Here's where you are misunderstanding me. By bringing the Allies down to their historical reality, I am not bringing the Nazi's up.

Nothing wrong with that. That's not where the disagreement is. Only when you try to bring the Allies so far down that you can equate them with the Nazis there's a disagreement

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point. When judging past actions, it is essential to preserve historical context. My overarching goal in this discussion has not been to defend anyone, but to highlight the fact that no side would stand up in today's evolved moral environment. I take no pleasure in dredging up unflattering facts about the Allies, but sometimes the truth hurts. I owe it to my ancestors to at least make an effort to understand their condition and mindset, and so does history.

Okay with that. We should devote more time to the causes Hitler's rise to power. Yes, I believe the treatment of Germany by the Allies after the WW1 had something to do with, but that's no excuse anymore than a guy who detonates a bomb in the supermarket says it was because he was victimized by his boss.

Its simply not good enough to say the Nazis were evil and the Allies were good. I am sorry, but history is never that black and white.

Tell me about it. Do you think I've slept through the nineties?

I, too, tend to see the world in shades of gray, and in the case of WW2, I see Allies as light gray and Nazis as very dark gray...

IMO, it is important that people understand the reality of the German situation in the Second World War, and the reality of the Allied situation. Fact is - the Germans may have started the war, but the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms. The fact that the Germans committed war crimes did not force the allies to do the same. They did so of their own valition, and when their enemies were already defeated. There is no argument that can be made to justify what they did to the women and children of their defeated enemies, just as there is no argument that can be made to justify the Holocaust. We can only look at both situations in context. Most Germans did not know of the extent of the Holocaust and many of those that did believed what they were doing was for the greater good of their society, while many in the Allied populace reveled in bloodlust and didn't mind showing off their strength at the expense of their vanquished foes. If you want to take that statement of fact as some sort of defense of Nazism, that's your misunderstanding; and you wouldn't be the first...

Ok, let's put thing into historical context.

Soviet Union: military deaths - 10,700,000; civilian deaths - 11,400,000
Poland: military deaths - 240,000; civilian deaths - 2,360,000
Yugoslavia; military deaths - 446,000; civilian deaths - 514,000
Nazi Germany: military deaths - 5,533,000; civilian deaths - 1,600,000

So, all three countries that were the victims of Nazi aggression had more civilians then soldiers killed, the most extreme example being Poland who lost 10 time more civilians then soldiers. On the other hand, Nazi Germany lost almost 4 times as many soldiers as civilians.

And for the grand finale:



So, bring down the allies, no problem with that. Just stop when you get to 4%.

I do understand that the chance for us to come to an agreement is very slim, so let me just say this before I quit. There are two main reasons why I disagree with you:

1. Cause and consequence - Nazi ideology was the cause of all those Allied deaths and all those German deaths were consequence of Allies fighting back.

2. Scale - the graph illustrates it better then words ever could...