No better than them

[PanzerJaeger]

And in addition it should be noted that, after the war, they also received the German population with open arms to join the civilised world again*.
On a larger level there might be the argument that even that was politically motivated to keep the Western part of Germany as a buffer to the Communist countries in the East - however, the countless experiences that German citizens had with American soldiers after the war clearly show that the amazingly friendly and helpful attitude of the American G.I.'s was genuine.


* While not as completely forgiving as the Americans it should be noted that also the other Allies (even Russia) treated the German population in Germany very decently after the war considering what they had to endure at the hands of the Germans during the war.

Of course both sides ingratiated themselves to the Germans. It's hardly surprising considering that they both needed them during the Cold War. Also, I know of many hundreds of thousands of German soldiers who would disagree with your caveat, had they survived the gulags.

[Ser Clegane]

Of course both sides ingratiated themselves to the Germans. It's hardly surprising considering that they both needed them during the Cold War.

As I said - this might be true from a high level political perspective - it certainly was not the motivation that drove the individual soldiers. US soldiers certainly treated German citizens much better than German soldiers treated the population in Poland or Russia.

Also, I know of many hundreds of thousands of German soldiers who would disagree with your caveat, had they survived the gulags.

Yes - hundreds of thousands of German soldiers died as POWs of the Soviet Union.
Soldiers of a country that absolutely devastated the Soviet Union killing millions of civilians. Soldiers of a country that let millions of Soviet POWs die in their camps.

A million dead POWs is a terrible number, and behind each of them there is an individual fate with a grieving family (my grandfather also died in Russia) - considering what Germany did during the war to the later victors, it still seems that Germany was pretty well off after the war - even under Soviet occupation (much much more so under the Western Allies).

Comparing the unprovoked systematic murder of millions of civilians with the death of one third of the German POWs in the SU after a war that destroyed the country is indeed shameful.

[PanzerJaeger]

As I said - this might be true from a high level political perspective - it certainly was not the motivation that drove the individual soldiers. US soldiers certainly treated German citizens much better than German soldiers treated the population in Poland or Russia.

In general yes, but on an individual basis that is debatable. Of course, the conduct of the war in the West was completely different than that of the East, and the Allies were not facing a vicious partisan insurgency.

Comparing the unprovoked systematic murder of millions of civilians with the death of one third of the German POWs in the SU after a war that destroyed the country is indeed shameful.

If you don't think the German POW deaths were systematic, I've got news for you. I see nothing wrong with comparing one orchestrated mass murder with another.

Not good enough.


I'll continue to put the ball in your court. You say: 'the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms'
This I take as an intolerable insult to the Americans who lay buried in our soil. Who's sacrifice I hold in the highest esteem.


America's fallen are the moral equivalent of nazis, or are they not. Which is it Panzer? A simple yes or no will suffice. Either they are, or they are not.

Some were, and some were not. That is the peril of the broad brush mentality that you've adopted.

In comparing John McCaffrey to Michael Wittmann, or Arthur Harris to Irwin Rommel, I would say both Nazis were morally superior. The same comparisons could be made many million times over - as you cannot place that many people in neatly marked "good" and "evil" boxes.

Talk about dancing on the head of a pin.

As a member of the only allied nation left to fight the nazis after 1940, I certainly don't feel any guilt associated with the treatment of the Germans during and just after the war.

The nazis were like a big playground bully, throwing their weight around. Even after beating some of his victims to the floor they didn't stop kicking his head in.

Cue two more lads enter the playground. They take the bully to task and stop him kicking in the heads of the subjegated ones.

Then they mete out some of the same to the nazi bully, only with this caveat. When he's beaten to the ground they stop kicking. Then when the bully says he's sorry and won't do it again, they give him a hand up, dust him down, take him for a slap up meal and buy him a house.

That's the difference. Intent is all.

So all are bullies, only one of the bigger bullies is slightly nicer to the one he just beat down because his fellow bully just turned enemy. Sounds about right to me.

Panzer:

You are not the first wargamer to become enamored of things German. The mental project in which you are engaged, however, is fruitless. Do not discard notions of "right" and "wrong" to replace them with total relavism -- that path ends poorly.

Good luck, and goodbye.

As opposed to many here who seem enamored with the Hollywood version of WW2, I am only interested in historical realities. Good luck to you, as well.

[Ser Clegane]

I the conduct of the war in the West was completely different than that of the East, and the Allies were not facing a vicious partisan insurgency.

What kind of argument is that supposed to be?
You are seriously using the partisan insurgency as an excuse?

If you don't think the German POW deaths were systematic, I've got news for you. I see nothing wrong with comparing one orchestrated mass murder with another.

Classical
You are putting words in my mouth while completely ignoring the actual statement.
Well done...

[PanzerJaeger]

What kind of argument is that supposed to be?
You are seriously using the partisan insurgency as an excuse?

Had the Western experience been the same as the Eastern, the situation would have been different. Look at how the American military conducted itself during Vietnam for a more accurate assessment how they would deal with an insurgency. Comparing those distinct parts of the war is dangerously close to apples and oranges.

Classical
You are putting words in my mouth while completely ignoring the actual statement.
Well done...

Calm down. There is no need to get hostile. Where did I put words in your mouth? It was not my intention. The deaths of all those POWs was just as systematic as anything the Nazis did.