U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[m52nickerson]

Again, maybe not of interest to you. But I'm sure that people that live in the suburbs would be quite interested that President Obama won't care one whit for their interests. You seem to be telling everyone that disagrees with your worldview to just shut up. Why is that?

So he commented back in college that he finds the suburbs boring, that means he does not care about the people that live there.........

[Don Corleone]

Happy Halloween!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Again, maybe not of interest to you. But I'm sure that people that live in the suburbs would be quite interested that President Obama won't care one whit for their interests. You seem to be telling everyone that disagrees with your worldview to just shut up. Why is that?

You're implying that everyone who lives in the suburbs is thin-skinned, but that isn't true. Fake outrage over comments like that is politics 101. See the "bitter" scandal from a while back, or all the talk about how palin and giuliani were insulting community organizers at the rnc. The purpose of this type of tactic is to turn the election into a culture war when they should be separate. If you're going to be serious instead of just joking around then talk about the issues, not partisan nonsense. I would say "be quiet" that's more polite than "shut up"

He's a representative, and hardy har har. Maybe because you don't pay into 401k plans, its a non-issue for you, but it's a big deal not just for me, but for a lot of people.

I brought that up because there's as much chance of miller's 401k plan passing as there is of ron paul's plans passing. It's not an issue relevant to the presidential race.

[Don Corleone]

You're implying that everyone who lives in the suburbs is thin-skinned, but that isn't true. Fake outrage over comments like that is politics 101. See the "bitter" scandal from a while back, or all the talk about how palin and giuliani were insulting community organizers at the rnc. The purpose of this type of tactic is to turn the election into a culture war when they should be separate. If you're going to be serious instead of just joking around then talk about the issues, not partisan nonsense. I would say "be quiet" that's more polite than "shut up"



I brought that up because there's as much chance of miller's 401k plan passing as there is of ron paul's plans passing. It's not an issue relevant to the presidential race.

So let me get this straight. Your guy makes a bunch of comments talking about how stupid and bitter people who live in the country are, and how they cling to guns and religion. When those people get upset, they're the ones being small minded?

When he says that he doesn't care about the suburbs, people there are being petty when they raise an eyebrow?

I listen to a lot from people from the other side. I don't feel a need to shush everyone that disagrees with me, especially when they're raising a point about a candidate I support. If I really disagree with them, I attempt to answer them, not tell them to 'be quiet', 'shut up', or whatever else comes to mind. You apparently do. If that's the best answer you can come up with to criticism on your candidate, you may want to examine why that is.

As for Miller's 401k plan passing, he's the chairman of the Labor & Education committee. I think he's got a good chance of getting some legislation passed. But again, your only answer is "just be quiet", no answer on substance. And we should listen to you... because?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So let me get this straight. Your guy makes a bunch of comments talking about how stupid and bitter people who live in the country are, and how they cling to guns and religion. When those people get upset, they're the ones being small minded?

When he says that he doesn't care about the suburbs, people there are being petty when they raise an eyebrow?

I listen to a lot from people from the other side. I don't feel a need to shush everyone that disagrees with me, especially when they're raising a point about a candidate I support. If I really disagree with them, I attempt to answer them, not tell them to 'be quiet', 'shut up', or whatever else comes to mind. You apparently do. If that's the best answer you can come up with to criticism on your candidate, you may want to examine why that is.

Hi don. Republicans shouldn't make a big deal out of obama saying the suburbs are boring and democrats shouldn't make a big deal out of palin saying community organizer's don't have any real responsibility. That's what I said. The outrage over these types of comments is fake. Remember the wardrobe malfunction at the superbowl? 99% of the angry letters were sent after the media had been making a big deal about it for a few days, instead of it being a reaction to the actual event. This is the same thing. By the way, I'm a community organizer

It's not about censoring someone, it's about discussing something that's actually relevant. Like what the problem is with america's public schools. You're essentially complaining about me calling for less ad hominem attacks

As for Miller's 401k plan passing, he's the chairman of the Labor & Education committee. I think he's got a good chance of getting some legislation passed. But again, your only answer is "just be quiet", no answer on substance. And we should listen to you... because?

I think he has a good chance of getting the labor & education committee to vote on the whether the bill should be voted on. I have my doubts about it being passed onto the floor, into the white house, and being signed by president obama.

[Don Corleone]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree with each other on this one. Saying Obama is a marxist is an ad hominem attack. Quoting him and asking what exactly he meant is not a personal attack in my book, I guess it is in yours. I find it amusing that every issue Democrats lead on is 'relevant', and everyone that Republicans lead on are "part of the culture wars", but I'll give you this my friend, you play the game better than most.

[m52nickerson]

So let me get this straight. Your guy makes a bunch of comments talking about how stupid and bitter people who live in the country are, and how they cling to guns and religion. When those people get upset, they're the ones being small minded?

When he says that he doesn't care about the suburbs, people there are being petty when they raise an eyebrow?

I listen to a lot from people from the other side. I don't feel a need to shush everyone that disagrees with me, especially when they're raising a point about a candidate I support. If I really disagree with them, I attempt to answer them, not tell them to 'be quiet', 'shut up', or whatever else comes to mind. You apparently do. If that's the best answer you can come up with to criticism on your candidate, you may want to examine why that is.

Wow, way to misconstrue the things tat were said.

He said that some people cling to guns and religion. Not all people in the country do.

He said that the suburbs bore him, not that he did not care about people in the suburbs.

You are close to construction of a couple of strawmen.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree with each other on this one. Saying Obama is a marxist is an ad hominem attack. Quoting him and asking what exactly he meant is not a personal attack in my book, I guess it is in yours. I find it amusing that every issue Democrats lead on is 'relevant', and everyone that Republicans lead on are "part of the culture wars", but I'll give you this my friend, you play the game better than most.

Well, I wasn't using "ad hominem" to mean personal attack, I simply meant discussing character rather than issues. You're right that character is a lot more relevant than I said in my last post, I just find CR dropping in obama's comment about how boring the suburbs are to be trivial. I mean, they ARE boring, that's one of the reasons people move there. You don't get to watch many gang fights and muggings form your front porch in the suburbs but at least your tires aren't going to get slashed Obama has also said he is deeply concerned with the foreclosure crisis which is hitting the suburbs hard so it's obvious he does care about the people who live there.

By the way, what's with those goofy street names you suburb dwelling weirdo's all have, huh??

[Koga No Goshi]

So let me get this straight. Your guy makes a bunch of comments talking about how stupid and bitter people who live in the country are, and how they cling to guns and religion. When those people get upset, they're the ones being small minded?

When he says that he doesn't care about the suburbs, people there are being petty when they raise an eyebrow?

I listen to a lot from people from the other side. I don't feel a need to shush everyone that disagrees with me, especially when they're raising a point about a candidate I support. If I really disagree with them, I attempt to answer them, not tell them to 'be quiet', 'shut up', or whatever else comes to mind. You apparently do. If that's the best answer you can come up with to criticism on your candidate, you may want to examine why that is.

As for Miller's 401k plan passing, he's the chairman of the Labor & Education committee. I think he's got a good chance of getting some legislation passed. But again, your only answer is "just be quiet", no answer on substance. And we should listen to you... because?

Frankly Don it seems like whenever you do show up and post something about the election it is precisely the kind of feel-good or feel-bad play on emotions culture war crap that tends to take substance out of the election. "Oh my GOD, did you see what Obama said?" "Oh my GOD, did you see what the Dem Rep of Idaho said about Christians?" That kind of junk. If your vote is like a ship at sea that's being whipped this way and that everytime someone with a political party letter after their name says something, I am not sure what you expect me or Sasaki or Lemur or ATPG or anyone else who has decided to vote Obama to tell you.

If you wanted to get into tangents about which party makes sneering statements at wide swaths of the American public, we could do that, but I don't think it would make the Dems' opposition look very good. In fact they're the ones going around overtly campaigning on the whole "pro/real America" (and implied "fake America") distinctions which seem to castigate and demonize the hundreds of millions of us who live in cities and bigger, more developed states- WHICH INCLUDE SUBURBS, by the way. ;) In light of all the rhetoric flying around in the campaign and how shamelessly Republicans are pandering to the idea that big city and pro-Democratic America is "fake America", it does very much strike me as fake outrage to start having a coronary over Obama making a comment about suburbia. But, this would all be off topic and wouldn't be helping anyone make a better informed choice, should they be one of the shockingly obtuse people who could still be completely and totally undecided at this point.

The choice between the candidates is very simple, and I think the attempts to shade it in voluminous layers of gray and obscure how simple and visible the differences are is not being made by people who want the electorate to turn out and make the best choice based upon the facts, platform and policies -- the relevant factors. Likewise I think playacting like your vote is in jeopardy every time someone says something which irritates you personally on some level and the faux outrage over small things comes off like just finding last minute excuses to vote the way that (to me) it sounds like you pretty much had always wanted to.

My two cents on it.

[Don Corleone]

Frankly Don it seems like whenever you do show up and post something about the election it is precisely the kind of feel-good or feel-bad play on emotions culture war crap that tends to take substance out of the election. "Oh my GOD, did you see what Obama said?" "Oh my GOD, did you see what the Dem Rep of Idaho said about Christians?" That kind of junk. If your vote is like a ship at sea that's being whipped this way and that everytime someone with a political party letter after their name says something, I am not sure what you expect me or Sasaki or Lemur or ATPG or anyone else who has decided to vote Obama to tell you.

If you wanted to get into tangents about which party makes sneering statements at wide swaths of the American public, we could do that, but I don't think it would make the Dems' opposition look very good. In fact they're the ones going around overtly campaigning on the whole "pro/real America" (and implied "fake America") distinctions which seem to castigate and demonize the hundreds of millions of us who live in cities and bigger, more developed states- WHICH INCLUDE SUBURBS, by the way. ;) In light of all the rhetoric flying around in the campaign and how shamelessly Republicans are pandering to the idea that big city and pro-Democratic America is "fake America", it does very much strike me as fake outrage to start having a coronary over Obama making a comment about suburbia. But, this would all be off topic and wouldn't be helping anyone make a better informed choice, should they be one of the shockingly obtuse people who could still be completely and totally undecided at this point.

The choice between the candidates is very simple, and I think the attempts to shade it in voluminous layers of gray and obscure how simple and visible the differences are is not being made by people who want the electorate to turn out and make the best choice based upon the facts, platform and policies -- the relevant factors. Likewise I think playacting like your vote is in jeopardy every time someone says something which irritates you personally on some level and the faux outrage over small things comes off like just finding last minute excuses to vote the way that (to me) it sounds like you pretty much had always wanted to.

My two cents on it.

I was raising the point about 401k spending, but I can't get any Obama supporters to discuss that. So I guess that's not an issue in your book either?

CR mentioned the suburb crack, and I said that if Obama said he doesn't care about the suburbs, since a good portion of our population live there, it's relevant. As it turns out, he said it when he was graduating from law school, so yeah, I would say it turns out to be irrelvant.

Okay, so I've heard it three times, from Sasaki, from m52nickerson, and now from Koga. If it's not an officially approved topic by the Obama campaign, it's spurrious. Only your issues are 'relevant'. Got it. Wow... you 3 have got the talking points down pat! No deviations allowed!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

We're like the three horseman of the Obamacolypse, there is no escape. Now you know the real reason obama voted for that wireless surveillance bill

[Koga No Goshi]

I was raising the point about 401k spending, but I can't get any Obama supporters to discuss that. So I guess that's not an issue in your book either?

CR mentioned the suburb crack, and I said that if Obama said he doesn't care about the suburbs, since a good portion of our population live there, it's relevant. As it turns out, he said it when he was graduating from law school, so yeah, I would say it turns out to be irrelvant.

Okay, so I've heard it three times, from Sasaki, from m52nickerson, and now from Koga. If it's not an officially approved topic by the Obama campaign, it's spurrious. Only your issues are 'relevant'. Got it. Wow... you 3 have got the talking points down pat! No deviations allowed!

When Obama talks about some huge reform of the 401(k) system then this will be an election topic. I am sure I could dig up some Republican in Idaho who thinks copkiller bullets should be legal but I'm not going to run to the McCain campaign and demand that they give me an explanation. I should think the primary concern regarding 401(k)s right now would be the fact that the market is tanking and a lot of people have lost 10, 20, 30, 40% of the value of stock-based holdings.

If what one or two people have said (but not the candidates) is a major issue to you, your vote is your own DC. But several of us not going into full red alert panic mode over this one statement about 401(k)s hardly qualifies as us being an Obama gulag. I just think that out of all the major issues out there, this one seems like something we can discuss in two years once we have some more important things under control. If I recall correctly you have two daughters... might you feel differently if they were sons in their late teens right now?

[Strike For The South]

We're like the three horseman of the Obamacolypse, there is no escape. Now you know the real reason obama voted for that wireless surveillance bill

So you admit it!

[Koga No Goshi]

So you admit it!

Silence, Republican. The Inquisition of the Obamacolypse did not approve you speaking!

[m52nickerson]

So you admit it!

Yes we do. We are the horsemen before THE ONE! All your conservative are belong to us!

[Strike For The South]

Silence, Republican. The Inquisition of the Obamacolypse did not approve you speaking!

I am no republican. I think every side in this thread has yelled at me due to my thinly veiled personal attacks on all the candidates.

[Koga No Goshi]

I am no republican. I think every side in this thread has yelled at me due to my thinly veiled personal attacks on all the candidates.

But... I thought you were trying to earn Texas some respect in the eyes of the "real America" deep south?

Oh crap *runs out of thread*





(j/k btw Strike hehe)

[Don Corleone]

Don't pay Strike any mind. He's just bitterly clinging to God and guns.

[Koga No Goshi]

Are we winding down? With the election, I mean? We're just a few days out from voting day and it just seems so... quiet, overall. Nothing like a month ago at any rate.

[Strike For The South]

Are we winding down? With the election, I mean? We're just a few days out from voting day and it just seems so... quiet, overall. Nothing like a month ago at any rate.

Im content with watching the old people file in at this point.

[Ronin]

there is still time to liven things up dammit!!

dust off that terrorist alert level thingy and put it at red or something!!!

Obama still has not said that he does not molest little children...seriously...what are we to think???

[Louis VI the Fat]

I was intruiged by Obama's 'suburb' comment. For your convenience, below the 1990 original source.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First Black Heads Harvard Journal (Article from 04/17/1990 - Barack Obama)
The Intelligencer/Record (From Access newspaper archives)


His boyhood friends in Indonesia were street peddlers, and his grandmother still lives in a mud-walled house in Kenya. But Barack Obama is another world away, presiding over the Harvard Law Review as the first black president in the prestigious journal's 103-year history.

The charismatic 28-year-old, ensconced in the halls where tradition reigns, is taking aim at another custom: Obama's sights are set on the South' Side of Chicago, not on a U.S. Supreme Court clerkship or a fast-track career with a cushy firm.

"I'm not interested in the suburbs. The suburbs bore me. And I'm not interested in isolating myself," Obama said in a recent interview. "I feel good when I'm engaged in what I think are the core issues of the society, and those core issues to me are what's happening to poor folks in this society."

His passion is rooted in his background. He was born in Hawaii, his father an Oxfordand Harvard-educated economist from the African nation of Kenya, his mother a white anthropologist from Kansas. Obama moved to Southeast Asia at age 2 when his parents divorced and his mother married an Indonesian.

Until the fifth grade, Obama attended Indonesian schools, where most of his friends were the sons of servants, street peddlers and farmers. Concern for Obama's education led his mother to return him to Hawaii, where he attended public schools through high school. In 1983, he graduated from Columbia University with a degree in political science.

At a recent meeting in a Harvard cafeteria, his affinity with the underdog was readily apparent. "I lived in a country where I saw extreme poverty at a very early age," Obama said. "Parts of my family in Kenya remain very poor. My grandmother still lives in a mud-walled house with no running water or electricity.

"That's who I am, that's where I come from, not always literally, but at least emotionally." Obama entered Harvard Law School in 1988, and through a combination of grades and a writing competition, was elected to head the law review this February, He succeeded Peter Yu, a first-generation Chinese-American.

Obama cautions against reading too much into his election. "It's crucial that people don't see my election as somehow a symbol of progress in the broader sense, that we don't sort of point to a Barack Obama any more than you point to a Bill Cosby or a Michael Jordan and say 'Well, things are hunky dory,"' Obama said. "There's certainly racism here. There are certain burdens that are placed, more. emotionally at this point than concretely," Obama said.

"Professors may treat black students differently, sometimes by being, sort of, more dismissive, sometimes by being more, sort of, careful, because they think, you know, they think that somehow we can't cope in the classroom," he said.

Obama sees the inner cities as the front lines of racism. "It's critical at this stage for people who want to see genuine change to focus locally. And it is crucial that we figure out how to rebuild the core of leadership and institutions in these communities," he said. For five years before law school, Obama took on that task in Chicago.

As the director of a program that tried to bring South Side churches, unions and block associations together on projects, Obama was not trying to solve local problems, he said. Instead he sought to construct something more lasting — a forum for the community.

"I'm interested in organizations, not movements, because movements dissipate and organizations don't," Obama said.

So we have a young graduated activist, who says he identifies with the poor, the underdog, instead of with the gentle suburb. Who wants to put his idealism into action for those who need it, instead of taking the easy route via a cushy law firm.

And this is the latest Republican outrage?

You know what I dislike? Young people who are idealist until graduation. Who won't shut up as a student about improving the world, or doing something in return for their priviliged position. And who, no sooner have they graduated, forget about all that and are cynical old farts by the age of 25.
This apparently unlike Obama. A student activist. One who after graduation put his money where his mouth was all that time.

[Koga No Goshi]

I was intruiged by Obama's 'suburb' comment. For your convenience, below the 1990 original source.
So we have a young graduated activist, who says he identifies with the poor, the underdog, instead of with the gentle suburb. Who wants to put his idealism into action for those who need it, instead of taking the easy route via a cushy law firm.

And this is the latest Republican outrage?

You know what I dislike? Young people who are idealist until graduation. Who won't shut up as a student about improving the world, or doing something in return for their priviliged position. And who, no sooner have they graduated, forget about all that and are cynical old farts by the age of 25.
This apparently unlike Obama. A student activist. One who after graduation put his money where his mouth was all that time.

I agree 100% with the sentiment of what you are saying, but I want to point out that the world... the adult world, the working world, etc., break people down on that, or try to. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard people tell me "oh yeah, you think that now, give it ten years. You'll be more conservative." I've been listening to that since I was 19. Granted, I'm not an old man yet. But I have always despised hearing that "ha ha, you'll be Republican later if you have a brain" thing from older people... it's power of suggestion IMHO.

Someone who leaves college and goes into a six figure career, doesn't look back, and a few years later is voting for tax cuts,was never much of a progressive to begin with IMHO.

[Crazed Rabbit]

And this is the latest Republican outrage?

No, actually. The video/recording I linked to, where he lamented the tragedy of the SCOTUS not implementing socialism, is:

Obama is talking about the victories of the civil rights movement, and says, "You know if you look at the victories and the failures of the Civil Rights movement and its litigation strategy in the Court, I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples so that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I would be okay. But the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society.... And one of the I think the tragedies of the Civil Rights movement was because the Civil Rights movement became so court focused I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change and in some ways we still suffer from that."

CR

[Lemur]

Of some interest in the upcoming election: Ted "Series of Tubes" Stevens is found guilty on all counts.

Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens was convicted of seven corruption charges Monday in a trial that tainted the 40-year Senate career of Alaska's political patriarch.

The verdict, coming just days before Election Day, adds further uncertainty to a closely watched Senate race. Democrats hope to seize the once reliably Republican seat as part of their bid for a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

Stevens, 84, was convicted of all seven charges he faced of lying about free home renovations and other gifts he received from a wealthy oil contractor. Jurors began deliberating Wednesday at noon.

So he's still in his Senate seat, and he has to go up against his challenger? Is there no mechanism for the Senate to expel a member?

[Gregoshi]

The difference in campaign tactics and/or finances here in the Philadelphia region is striking. Nearly every political commercial on radio or TV is an Obama commercial and has been so for at least a month. I can't remember the last McCain commercial I saw/heard. However, the Republicans are quite busy with mailings and robo-calls. The theme? Scare tactics about what an Obama presidency will mean to the country. Who needs to watch scary Halloween movies this week? I can just playback the robo-calls or read the flyers.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

The difference in campaign tactics and/or finances here in the Philadelphia region is striking. Nearly every political commercial on radio or TV is an Obama commercial and has been so for at least a month. I can't remember the last McCain commercial I saw/heard. However, the Republicans are quite busy with mailings and robo-calls. The theme? Scare tactics about what an Obama presidency will mean to the country. Who needs to watch scary Halloween movies this week? I can just playback the robo-calls or read the flyers.

That's interesting. Over here in Gettysburg about half the ads are McCain and about half are Obama, and I'm including the pro-McCain ads put out by the RNC and the Obama ads put out by the DNC. Of course Adams County is more reliably Republican so maybe McCain is willing to put more money here (part of his plan to capture the T of PA?) and/or maybe Obama doesn't feel like spending as much here for the same reason.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Of some interest in the upcoming election: Ted "Series of Tubes" Stevens is found guilty on all counts.

Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens was convicted of seven corruption charges Monday in a trial that tainted the 40-year Senate career of Alaska's political patriarch.

The verdict, coming just days before Election Day, adds further uncertainty to a closely watched Senate race. Democrats hope to seize the once reliably Republican seat as part of their bid for a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

Stevens, 84, was convicted of all seven charges he faced of lying about free home renovations and other gifts he received from a wealthy oil contractor. Jurors began deliberating Wednesday at noon.

So he's still in his Senate seat, and he has to go up against his challenger? Is there no mechanism for the Senate to expel a member?

The Senate could vote to censure him or could vote for expulsion. Only 15 Senators have been expelled (14 of whom were expelled for leaving to join the Confederacy), so its rare. What typically happens is that the Ethics committee recommends expulsion and the Senator resigns before a vote can be called.

Note, however, that Senators facing serious charges have sometimes been upheld by their fellow Senators despite evidence of their guilt.

Censure would not deprive him of his vote or right to participate, but functions as a formal "silent treatment" by fellow Senators.

[Koga No Goshi]

No, actually. The video/recording I linked to, where he lamented the tragedy of the SCOTUS not implementing socialism, is:

Obama is talking about the victories of the civil rights movement, and says, "You know if you look at the victories and the failures of the Civil Rights movement and its litigation strategy in the Court, I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples so that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I would be okay. But the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society.... And one of the I think the tragedies of the Civil Rights movement was because the Civil Rights movement became so court focused I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change and in some ways we still suffer from that."

CR

That "socialism" was what MLK Jr. began talking about -- the huge sums spent on the Vietnam War while the promises of Civil Rights had still not been fulfilled, and that the promise of equal rights on paper was meaningless if black people had no access to opportunities that could help bring them, as communities, out of poverty-- when he was assasinated.

If you're attacking that concept, you're not attacking Obama. You're attacking the black civil rights movement, because the happy lip rhetoric of equality without the real dollar value action is just a white re-invention of MLK Jr.'s message.

[Lemur]

Note, however, that Senators facing serious charges have sometimes been upheld by their fellow Senators despite evidence of their guilt.

Yah, I had noticed that. Thanks for clearing up the procedures for a lemur. Between William Jefferson and Ted Stevens, I was wondering what it takes to get the boot from Congress.

This is kinda cool, a newspaper endorsements map.