No better than them

[Koga No Goshi]

Umm, the expulsions were committed in tangent with mass muders thus the description of ethnic cleansing.

I was not saying everyone wanted to kill Germans, I am talking about the Czechs and the Allies.

Well as far as Allies aside from some community leaders and such being detained, I know for sure you can't argue any such thing happened on large scale with the U.S., despite a sizeable and politically active German population which still attended church and community organizations in Latin/German language. It did happen to the Japanese, well, expulsion and detainment at least. But I mean come on Bopa.. yes, such a thing happening to the Germans just for being an unwanted German minority is indeed racist, but this happening in Czech and a handful of other places rises to the occasion of being equal to what the Nazis did throughout all of Europe? That's what people are taking exception to--- and you and others are misinterpreting it as "us saying the Allies did no wrong."

[Incongruous]

Well as far as Allies aside from some community leaders and such being detained, I know for sure you can't argue any such thing happened on large scale with the U.S., despite a sizeable and politically active German population which still attended church and community organizations in Latin/German language. It did happen to the Japanese, well, expulsion and detainment at least. But I mean come on Bopa.. yes, such a thing happening to the Germans just for being an unwanted German minority is indeed racist, but this happening in Czech and a handful of other places rises to the occasion of being equal to what the Nazis did throughout all of Europe? That's what people are taking exception to--- and you and others are misinterpreting it as "us saying the Allies did no wrong."

What? The Allies sat down with the Czechs and said, "yeah go ahead", in actual fact we don't really care about ethnic cleansing or mass murder, we never started the war because of it and in fact we are off to go and do some of our own now.

People have been stating that what happened was justified or acceptable and we can just forget about it. Bollocks, if we do that we are accepting that ethnic cleansing is just fine in some cases.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What? The Allies sat down with the Czechs and said, "yeah go ahead", in actual fact we don't really care about ethnic cleansing or mass murder, we never started the war because of it and in fact we are off to go and do some of our own now.

Source?

If such a meeting occurred and there are records of who said what etc., then such crimes would still be actionable. Denounce those responsible and see them brought to justice.

If you're "summarizing" the actions of some individuals, then you aren't necessarily summarizing their intent correctly. Crimes of negligence are usually held to be less morally reprehensible then those conducted with intent -- so gauging intent correctly matters.

If you are attempting to make a claim along the following lines:

Action "A" was deemed evil; Action "B" is also evil; therefore Action A and B are the same.

You fail to account for degrees of evil, a concept with which most persons agree.



Your ardent emphasis on the term "ethnic cleansing" seems to me to indicate that you are attempting to draw some link in moral equivalence with recent occurrences in the former yugoslavia. This suggests that your posts may have an ulterior motive.

I could, of course, be incorrect. It is possible that you are merely annoyed with one series of regrettable incidents from European history and brought them to our attention as a result of your vexation -- without attempting any other rhetorical "turn."

[Incongruous]

Source?

Your ardent emphasis on the term "ethnic cleansing" seems to me to indicate that you are attempting to draw some link in moral equivalence with recent occurrences in the former yugoslavia. This suggests that your posts may have an ulterior motive.

I could, of course, be incorrect. It is possible that you are merely annoyed with one series of regrettable incidents from European history and brought them to our attention as a result of your vexation -- without attempting any other rhetorical "turn."

Well you can call it what you like, it will not detract from what happened. Ulterior motive? You trying to wave a fascism card at me? I'm not sure.

Your second analysis would be more correct, I am interested in the topic and brought it to the backroom, though it might seem too subversive? Even apologetic to the Nazis? If so that is not my game.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Panzerjäger and the others who argue against the assertion: Our thoughts on the subject are too rational and are therefore thrown out. Give up, unless debates are more with facts and less with emotions. My opinion anyway....

[Strike For The South]

Panzerjäger and the others who argue against the assertion: Our thoughts on the subject are too rational and are therefore thrown out. Give up, unless debates are more with facts and less with emotions. My opinion anyway....

I am fully aware bad things happened to the Germans. Im not debating with emotions at all. The Germans should be happy for any mercy anyone showed them. The relativism in this thread is mind boggling. The Allies could've have done much worse and cooler heads prevailed even after the Germans had there last machismo filled hurrah. Did Americans Brits and Russians always act humanely? No The shoe went on the other foot ,its war thats why it sucks because people die and sometimes they are tortured raped and killed thats why you shouldnt start a war simply because you think you are better than everyone else.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I am fully aware bad things happened to the Germans. Im not debating with emotions at all. The Germans should be happy for any mercy anyone showed them. The relativism in this thread is mind boggling. The Allies could've have done much worse and cooler heads prevailed even after the Germans had there last machismo filled hurrah. Did Americans Brits and Russians always act humanely? No The shoe went on the other foot ,its war thats why it sucks because people die and sometimes they are tortured raped and killed thats why you shouldnt start a war simply because you think you are better than everyone else.

Right because that's why the war started. I'd better just leave now....

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzerjäger and the others who argue against the assertion: Our thoughts on the subject are too rational and are therefore thrown out. Give up, unless debates are more with facts and less with emotions. My opinion anyway....

No, I think progress has been made. If we continue to speak the truth whenever these subjects arise and not let ourselves be cowed by the "OMG N@ZI DENIER!!1" crowd, history will eventually be rectified.

I am fully aware bad things happened to the Germans. Im not debating with emotions at all. The Germans should be happy for any mercy anyone showed them. The relativism in this thread is mind boggling. The Allies could've have done much worse and cooler heads prevailed even after the Germans had there last machismo filled hurrah. Did Americans Brits and Russians always act humanely? No The shoe went on the other foot ,its war thats why it sucks because people die and sometimes they are tortured raped and killed thats why you shouldnt start a war simply because you think you are better than everyone else.

I'm sorry, but being attacked does not give one carte blanche to carry out crimes against humanity on a massive scale. Being attacked does not impart the moral justification to drop fire bombs and nuclear weapons on the attacker once they are beaten. No, there's no justification for incinerating women and children, not in Auschwitz and not in Dresden. How amazingly cruel is it to annihilate two cities - housing hundreds of thousands of refugees from other cities burned to the ground - just to show off?

Yes, the relativism in this thread is mind boggling.

In '91, would the allies have been justified in dropping a nuclear weapon on Baghdad? In '03, would Hussein have been justified in gassing American troops?

How your enemy behaves does not legitimize immoral actions. The allies weren't even up against the wall when they carried out their largest war crimes, they'd practically won.

[Strike For The South]

I'm sorry, but being attacked does not give one carte blanch to carry out crimes against humanity on a massive scale. Being attacked does not impart the moral justification to drop fire bomb and nuclear weapons on the attacker once you've got them beaten. No, there's no justification for incinerating women and children, not in Auschwitz and not in Dresden. How amazingly cruel is it to annihilate two cities - housing thousands of refugees from other cities burned to the ground - just to show off?

Yes, the relativism in this thread is mind boggling.

In '91, would the allies have been justified in dropping a nuclear weapon on Baghdad? In '03, would Hussein have been justified in gassing American troops?

How your enemy behaves does not legitimize immoral actions. The allies weren't even up against the wall when they carried out their largest war crimes, they'd practically won.

The objective in war is to totally break your enemies spirit and will to fight. War is not something filled with honor, it is a dirty business fought by men with a glimmer of hope in there eye. Bullies have no right to bitch and moan when they get some of there on medicine. If my family had been living under the jackboot for years I would've taken a measure of revenge as well. I dont understand why you think we should've taken the gloves off. Frankly The American troops should've done whatever it took to subdue that scourge. Geez give me the Japanese any day now there was an enemy at least they died with a straight back.

[Koga No Goshi]

What? The Allies sat down with the Czechs and said, "yeah go ahead", in actual fact we don't really care about ethnic cleansing or mass murder, we never started the war because of it and in fact we are off to go and do some of our own now.

People have been stating that what happened was justified or acceptable and we can just forget about it. Bollocks, if we do that we are accepting that ethnic cleansing is just fine in some cases.

As someone whose existence would not have been possible in a post-Axis victory world, I would not condone the full extent of everything bad that happened to any German in WWII, but I would say I am pretty glad that if WWII was inevitable it concluded the way that it did. My sticking point would be that I do feel the use of nuclear weapons on civilian populations was unsupportable, but given that the Allies/U.S. never sought to mass exterminate the Japanese people, I would still shy very much away from saying this act, while singularly horrific, made the Allies just like the Axis "except that they won instead of lost."

I am not really sure why it's difficult to accept someone saying "yes, that was racist and immoral, but a huge war was going on across the globe, with ethnic cleansing and mass murder of huge proportions going on across continents, and out of the two sides, the one vastly less directly embracing of genocidal agendas came out the winner, and I'm glad." I'm part Native and also through my dad's side of the family from Hawaii, related to Japanese people as well who were here in the U.S. during WWII, so you'd never get a fullthroated conviction out of me that the U.S. or any other western power has never done vicious biologically racist things. But I think out of all of the unreported or underacknowledged human tragedies in the world, I have but you and Panzer's word to take that what happened to Germans was one of the worst, if not the worst. I mean, try to talk to the typical American about genocide conducted on Native Americans.... or talk to Japan about their own role in WWII. These sorts of national denials of crimes is not exactly unique to anyone, not even the Germans, Bopa.

[Tribesman]

They are defending these actions as acceptable, this is defending racism.

No , they are not defending them as acceptable , its just pointing out that your premise that these actions were just the same as the Nazi atrocities is a pile of bollox .
Its simple really , on the one hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because they view their victims as sub-human who were responsible for capitalism , communism ,the economic crisis , tuberculosis , the plague , germanys defeat in WWI , bad agricultural yields and 101 other made up "reasons".......and on the other hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because these genocidal maniacs had come to their countries as aggresors and slaughtered lots and lots of people for purely bollox reasons .
Both sides did nasty stuff , but they are in no way equivalent . So your attempt to portray them as equal is pure unadulterated bollox .

Shameful, having half of my family come from Hungary it is a duty for me to question what happened after WWII.

Yes and interesting questions they might be , like how was it that the deportations of Hungarians from czechoslovakia was matched by deportations of chechs and slovaks from Hungary ? apart from one little discrepency ...the little discrepancy being the third of the total Hungarian deportees who didn't count in the reciprocal population exchange because they had moved to Czecoslaovakia after Hungary had taken over part of the territory in agreement with the Nazis .
So I suppose that third kinda comes back to the 500,000 new German settlers put out of eastern territories , they must be removed from the equation to make it fair as they shouldn't have been there at all .After all you cannot complain about people losing their home and job through deportation when they had only just stolen it themselves .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No , they are not defending them as acceptable , its just pointing out that your premise that these actions were just the same as the Nazi atrocities is a pile of bollox .
Its simple really , on the one hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because they view their victims as sub-human who were responsible for capitalism , communism ,the economic crisis , tuberculosis , the plague , germanys defeat in WWI , bad agricultural yields and 101 other made up "reasons".......and on the other hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because these genocidal maniacs had come to their countries as aggresors and slaughtered lots and lots of people for purely bollox reasons .
Both sides did nasty stuff , but they are in no way equivalent . So your attempt to portray them as equal is pure unadulterated bollox .


Yes and interesting questions they might be , like how was it that the deportations of Hungarians from czechoslovakia was matched by deportations of chechs and slovaks from Hungary ? apart from one little discrepency ...the little discrepancy being the third of the total Hungarian deportees who didn't count in the reciprocal population exchange because they had moved to Czecoslaovakia after Hungary had taken over part of the territory in agreement with the Nazis .
So I suppose that third kinda comes back to the 500,000 new German settlers put out of eastern territories , they must be removed from the equation to make it fair as they shouldn't have been there at all .After all you cannot complain about people losing their home and job through deportation when they had only just stolen it themselves .

Good Lord! I am in complete agreement with a Tribesman post. Whoever is watching over the seventh seal, please give it a quick check!

[Koga No Goshi]

Good Lord! I am in complete agreement with a Tribesman post. Whoever is watching over the seventh seal, please give it a quick check!

Tribesman is like, uncannily always right on pretty much everything. Even if someone doesn't like what he's saying. ;) He has conquered and should be named of this realm.

[Sarmatian]

“My Grandmother was tortured at age 13”: Horrible what happened to her. Not right, I agree. But it doesn’t make her father supported regime's ideology right.
Do you want Sarmantian describe to you what the Hungarian Nazi did in Novi Sad to the Jews?
“The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism”: so you still don’t know what is racism…

Don't have to do that, I can describe what Hungarian Nazis did to members of my family. Much more personal and detailed. I mean, it's not like Bopa is the only one who had a grandfather...

You are shooting holes in the precept that WWII was fought to stop mass muder and injustices like ethnic cleansing, of coarse subsequent history proved that the U.S, U.K and France love to commit crimes against humanity all the time.

No, WW2 was fought because some deluded people decided that it is not cool to give away your country and your life just because an insane power freak and his clique decided that they're racially superior and entitled to both. Strangely enough, some would think that's good enough reason to fight it.

This is getting ridiculous. Are we now at the point where allies are guilty of defending their nations because they didn't know the full extent of the Holocaust? Fighting back when someone attacks you is not good enough? You have to know that there is a Holocaust somewhere else to have a right to defend yourself or your allies?

[Incongruous]

No , they are not defending them as acceptable , its just pointing out that your premise that these actions were just the same as the Nazi atrocities is a pile of bollox .
Its simple really , on the one hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because they view their victims as sub-human who were responsible for capitalism , communism ,the economic crisis , tuberculosis , the plague , germanys defeat in WWI , bad agricultural yields and 101 other made up "reasons".......and on the other hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because these genocidal maniacs had come to their countries as aggresors and slaughtered lots and lots of people for purely bollox reasons .
Both sides did nasty stuff , but they are in no way equivalent . So your attempt to portray them as equal is pure unadulterated bollox .


Yes and interesting questions they might be , like how was it that the deportations of Hungarians from czechoslovakia was matched by deportations of chechs and slovaks from Hungary ? apart from one little discrepency ...the little discrepancy being the third of the total Hungarian deportees who didn't count in the reciprocal population exchange because they had moved to Czecoslaovakia after Hungary had taken over part of the territory in agreement with the Nazis .
So I suppose that third kinda comes back to the 500,000 new German settlers put out of eastern territories , they must be removed from the equation to make it fair as they shouldn't have been there at all .After all you cannot complain about people losing their home and job through deportation when they had only just stolen it themselves .

Well we are talking about murder Tribes, I'm sure they would have been delighted to have only lost their jobs.

I never said that the Allies were the same as the Nazis, I was pointing out that the issue of German deportations and mass murders have been treated by me and people I know as a non-issue, I have sought to redress this issue. I thought it might make an interesting topic for the backroom. If I am guilty of misreading or misunderstanding then so are you, and you can slap that big bollocks back across your face.

As for Hungary, yeah I was always for defending those people, I am Nazi don't you know?
Look Tribes, I am not going to defend the Nazis, you want to use the Bollocks attack go point at our resident fascist. You can keep talking about 500,000 not really owning land, fine but for that to justify the killing of those who did own some land I find issue with.

If anyone doubts that the Allies were in on it, go read about Potsdam and Tehran, they dealt with everyone there. Have some Cossacks who want freedom? Just put them on a train to nowhere!
Yes, we the Allies are fighting for Justice! We'll do whatever it takes to achieve it...