German Identity

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This I share. The 18th century enlightened poet Schiller is Germany. the Holocaust is Germany too. But can't one not admire Schiller despite the Holocaust?

Indeed. But are not the poets too often simply thrown aside for a look into the darkest times of our history? When we think of the British, we think of Wordsworth, Tennyson, Queen Victoria, black pudding, and Aston Martin. Do most people really think of the same things in German history?

There is no doubt that the Holocaust and the war were terrible, horrible, atrocious events. But do they define us? I sincerely hope not.

Other than that, this is the internets so I'm outta here before the revisionists spout their vulgar nonsense again and work on my blood pressure.

This is the only part of your post I would disagree with. Whether you agree with this case of revisionism or not, you would surely agree that historical revisionism in general is very, very important to history and our understanding of it?

[KarlXII]

This is the only part of your post I would disagree with. Whether you agree with this case of revisionism or not, you would surely agree that historical revisionism in general is very, very important to history and our understanding of it?

It depends on how it's used. If used in historical debate, I have no problems, as long as the evidence is strong and supporting. However, historical revisionism has always been the foundation to inane nationalistic propoganda.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It depends on how it's used. If used in historical debate, I have no problems, as long as the evidence is strong and supporting. However, historical revisionism has always been the foundation to inane nationalistic propoganda.

Well, if you can back up your position with factual historical data, you're entitled to have it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

This is the only part of your post I would disagree with. Whether you agree with this case of revisionism or not, you would surely agree that historical revisionism in general is very, very important to history and our understanding of it?

I think you misunderstand the word's use in English. Of course it is important to revise our understanding of history as new evidence and new thought emerges.

Revisionism however, has a particular meaning almost in opposition to the above. A revisionist aims to revise history towards a previously held point of view. In relation to Germany's history, this invariably means trying to excuse the Holocaust and Nazism via mealy-mouthed spin on detail. It is repulsive and demeaning.

Does the Holocaust define Germany? Yes it does, but it is merely a part of the definition. Crucial, but not the whole complex story.

Louis, as ever, a wonderful post. bow:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think you misunderstand the word's use in English. Of course it is important to revise our understanding of history as new evidence and new thought emerges.

Revisionism however, has a particular meaning almost in opposition to the above. A revisionist aims to revise history towards a previously held point of view. In relation to Germany's history, this invariably means trying to excuse the Holocaust and Nazism via mealy-mouthed spin on detail. It is repulsive and demeaning.

Well, I see historical revisionism as this, and I suppose most people see it as this when the word "revisionism" is used. I think that this is an unfortunate connontation.

[Sarmatian]

Indeed. But are not the poets too often simply thrown aside for a look into the darkest times of our history? When we think of the British, we think of Wordsworth, Tennyson, Queen Victoria, black pudding, and Aston Martin. Do most people really think of the same things in German history?

I believe they do. At least I do. Goethe, Humboldt, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Schiller, Bismarck, Frederick the Great, Beethoven, Wagner, Mercedes, BMW etc...

Even Stalin said: "Hitlers come and go, Germany and German people remain". Compared to all this, Hitler barely deserves a footnote. If I were German, I wouldn't see anything to be ashamed of. Of course, this doesn't mean that we should forget about Nazi Germany crimes in WW2. In my opinion, the way Germany was able to let go of the Nazi past just added to its "greatness". That's why I'm rather surprised when I see German feeling the need to defend it, or trying to put it "in perspective"...