Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

[Ice]

I can't format my reply because of the forums downgrade that happened recently, so this will be a little disorganized.

1. Screwed up is a very vague term. What does it mean to you?
2. Because their emplyers won't stop exploiting them right to the edge of what society will bear.
3. Absolutely.
4. Short answer: the rich would flouirish to unimaginable levels and the poor would be stripped of what little protections they have at work.
5. No. Without unions those laws will be eroded.

Oh, and stop with the "unions are both good and bad" bunk. Life is not like South Park and the truth is not always in the middle. Thinking that it is shows you have no clue what you're talking about.

Newflash: It isn't the beginning of the 20th century anymore.

My point still stands, though; by saying that "some unions are good, some are bad", you're ascribing to them this kind of moral ambiguity that simply doesn't exist. There are bad unions - the prison workers' union in CA comes to mind - but that's literally the only valid example of unions causing serious trouble that I've ever heard. The overwhelming mojaority are agents of good.

Ever heard of the United Auto Workers Union?

[Skullheadhq]

Newflash: It isn't the beginning of the 20th century anymore.

So, if unions and labour laws would be abolished overnight won't employees radically cut salaries and decrease working condition and hire childen because it isn't the beginning of the 20th century anymore?

[Ice]

So, if unions and labour laws would be abolished overnight won't employees radically cut salaries and decrease working condition and hire childen because it isn't the beginning of the 20th century anymore?

Labor laws should not be abolished and no.

[Skullheadhq]

Labor laws should not be abolished and no.

Ehm, you were implying that things like this could never happen today because companies are ethical now and therefore unions are unnecessary, this is total nonsense seeing as Nike and other companies are using child labor in Pakistan and paying them close to nothing.

NEWSFLASH: Companies didn't change a thing since the beginning of the 20th century, they are only doing it in countries with weak to outlawed unions without labour laws.

[seireikhaan]

Ehm, you were implying that things like this could never happen today because companies are ethical now and therefore unions are unnecessary, this is total nonsense seeing as Nike and other companies are using child labor in Pakistan and paying them close to nothing.

NEWSFLASH: Companies didn't change a thing since the beginning of the 20th century, they are only doing it in countries with weak to outlawed unions without labour laws.

In other news, just over 12% of US employees are in unions. Linky. And, lo and behold, we have not turned into Columbia. Imo, unions are only necessary for highly dangerous professions, such as mining. Otherwise, it seems they're pretty obsolete, given such a vast majority choose not to participate in them.

[jabarto]

In other news, just over 12% of US employees are in unions. Linky. And, lo and behold, we have not turned into Columbia. Imo, unions are only necessary for highly dangerous professions, such as mining. Otherwise, it seems they're pretty obsolete, given such a vast majority choose not to participate in them.

You are aware that even suggesting that a work force be unioniized can be grounds for the company firing every last employee and shutting down the workpace, right? It's happened before with WalMart. So while there probably are people who don't want to unionize, that's realy a moot point compared to how hard it is to actually do so if you want to.

Also, remember that unions exist to protect their employees from unfair practices, which are hardlyexclusive to dangerous professions. Anyone can be exploited, and everyone needs protection from it.

[Xiahou]

I'd say the fall of unions probably goes hand in hand with the growth of their incestuous relationship with government. The majority of union members are now government employees- the vicious circle that can lead to is dizzying.

Of course, that's in addition to some of the things that Lemur touched on such as early unions achieving much of their goals via labor laws.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You are aware that even suggesting that a work force be unioniized can be grounds for the company firing every last employee and shutting down the workpace, right? It's happened before with WalMart.

And WalMart, unlike the unionized auto makers, is not in danger of bankruptcy. Which means the employees there aren't getting laid off like at the auto plants.

Also, remember that unions exist to protect their employees from unfair practices, which are hardlyexclusive to dangerous professions. Anyone can be exploited, and everyone needs protection from it.

That's why we have laws. And people able to protect themselves.

Unions are, in the US, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They fought for laws stopping mistreatment and exploitation and they got them. And now what?

It seems the big unions exist only to gouge more out of the business and expand membership. There's a very good reason they're shrinking in the private sector; people don't want to join them.

Unions aren't being judged worthless by some evil vast right wing conspiracy, but by the workers of the United States.

CR

[Ice]

Ehm, you were implying that things like this could never happen today because companies are ethical now and therefore unions are unnecessary,

I would say companies are more ethical today simply because of public perception and outside pressure. You can't exactly work someone in dangerous conditions, without a break, and 6 days a week for minimal pay without getting bad publicity.

this is total nonsense seeing as Nike and other companies are using child labor in Pakistan and paying them close to nothing.

See my above comment. I disagree with third world sweat shops. This discussion isn't about that though.

NEWSFLASH: Companies didn't change a thing since the beginning of the 20th century, they are only doing it in countries with weak to outlawed unions without labour laws.

Stop trying to be a smart***... you are failing miserably. Did I ever say we needed less labor laws? In fact, these laws can act as very good subsitutes for most unions.

The auto industries did not fail because of unionized labor. They fell because they produced terrible cars that nobody wanted. But go ahead and keep blaming unions for bad management decisions.

Keep trying to simply the problem. Reread my post... here I'll post the important part for you.

Greed. It's as simple as that. To use the auto companies in Michigan as an example, the unions kept asking for more, and the car companies, not wanting to upset earnings in the short term, gave it to them.

Does this sound like I'm soley blaming the unions? BAD MANAGEMENT DECISIONS empowered the unions.

[jabarto]

Ever heard of the United Auto Workers Union?

The auto industries did not fail because of unionized labor. They fell because they produced terrible cars that nobody wanted. But go ahead and keep blaming unions for bad management decisions.