Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Rhyfelwyr]

I guess FGM means forced girl marriage?

Female genital mutilation, I never got it till I went back and read the bit in Sasaki's spoilers.

[Fragony]

Female genital mutilation, I never got it till I went back and read the bit in Sasaki's spoilers.

Wow, there is a abreviation for cutting up a girls vagina, how very humanly humanistic. **** comes to mind.

[al Roumi]

Wow, there is a abreviation for cutting up a girls vagina, how very humanly humanistic. stfu comes to mind.

Fool me for thinking we had a clue what we are talking about here... never mind.

Edit:

The point, in simple terms, although these don't appear to be effective with you either Fragony, is that Female Genital Mutilation (FGM - a commonly used acronym for those discussing this issue) is not an ISLAMIC practice, it is a cultural practice -and not one exclusive to Muslims either.

I am not for one second going to excuse it. It's butchery. But it's not RELIGIOUS.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Fool me for thinking we had a clue what we are talking about here... never mind.

With respect to FGM (and only FGM), this is certainly not an "Islamic" -in the sense of appearing in the Qu'ran or Hadith - concept. It is popular in East African cultures, of which Hirsa Ali is descended, being Somali. I've never heard of Asian or Middle Eastern Muslims practicing FGM. My understanding is that FGM is an east African cultural concept, not directly related to Islam as it is also present in non Islamic East-African cultures.

But that is only FGM.

http://www.murdoch.edu.au/elaw/issue...#ii%29%20Who_T

# An estimated 135 million of the world's girls and women have undergone genital mutilation and 2 million girls a year, approximately 6 000 a day, are at risk of FGM.[26]

# FGM is practised in more than 40 countries; this number is rising because of increasing migration to Western countries from traditionally practising countries.[27] It has been reported in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, UK and USA.[28]

# FGM is practised extensively in Africa, is common in the Middle East and has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and among the indigenous peoples of Columbia, Mexico and Peru.[29]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_102025141/

The incidence of FGM in women worldwide is unknown; however, rough estimates range from 114 to 130 million women. FGM is most commonly practiced in African countries where up to 90% of women in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sierra Leone, Somalia, and Sudan (North) have been circumcised. Other African countries such as Benin, Burkina, Faso, Central African Republic, Chad, Cote d'Ivoire, Egypt, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Kenya, Liberia, Mali, Nigeria, and Togo have reported a 50% incidence (WHO, 1998). This practice can also be found in the Middle East countries including the Oman, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates and Asian countries including Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, and India. Some cultures are strictly forbidden to disclose information about their practices so data collection is inadequate.

http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/fgm-prov-p.htm

SRI LANKA

* Current status: Female genital mutilation is practiced among the Muslim population in Sri Lanka. The share of Muslims is 7.6 per cent. However, the majority of Muslims do not practice FGM. Precise details and figures are not available, as this is practiced in utmost secrecy.
* Legislation: No legislation has been enacted to curb it.

http://www.pri.org/business/nonprofi...-iraq2052.html

The emotionally, physically and psychologically disturbing practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) is surprisingly common in Northern Iraq. A recent survey found that more than 40 percent of women in the Chamchamal district had undergone the risky procedure that involves the removal of the clitoris and sometimes other genital parts.

The issue is complicated by inaccurate or nonexistant data, african immigrant populations, and differing types of fgm.

But the main issue we've been talking about here--when millions of people believe that a religion justifies a certain action, how much sense does it make to point to original texts? Religion and culture are intertwined--the developments that take place in the centuries after the original texts are written seem to me to be a part of the religion.

Basically, claiming a practice is not religious, when millions of the people of that religion would disagree with you, seems bizarre. If I knew more about christianity...aren't their some basic things that are considered christian (or catholic maybe) that aren't based on original texts?

[al Roumi]

But the main issue we've been talking about here--when millions of people believe that a religion justifies a certain action, how much sense does it make to point to original texts? Religion and culture are intertwined--the developments that take place in the centuries after the original texts are written seem to me to be a part of the religion.

As my earlier post, the reason for saying it is not a part of religion is because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone. Hence Reenk's point about the need to be specific in terminology and scope. Lumping a whole load of factors under a single heading is easy, but quickly gets one into hot water when faced with the subtleties of reality.

Some Somali's may think FGM is religious, others do not.

If you'd like an example from Christianity; people could, looking at the KKK or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, acuse all Christians of violently persecuting black people or of practicing extreme forms of polygamy.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

As my earlier post, the reason for saying it is not a part of religion is because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone.
...
If you'd like an example from Christianity; people could, looking at the KKK or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, acuse all Christians of violently persecuting black people or of practicing extreme forms of polygamy.

I'm thinking of things like the sacrament, baptism, priest celibacy...aka many of the things that have caused division in christianity. It's generally agreed that these are religious customs. They have a cultural basis, aren't practiced by all christians, are practiced in some other cultures etc. You wouldn't say that they "aren't a part of religion" because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone.

[Reenk Roink]

I'm thinking of things like the sacrament, baptism, priest celibacy...aka many of the things that have caused division in christianity. It's generally agreed that these are religious customs. They have a cultural basis, aren't practiced by all christians, are practiced in some other cultures etc. You wouldn't say that they "aren't a part of religion" because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone.

Well the thing is, people might be more willing to accept things as "an islamic problem" if it's pretty clearly shown that it has a strong basis in the religion and, like say, fasting in Ramadan. Sure there are probably groups out there who don't fast and have different views, but in this case it's pretty obvious that this custom is uniquely Islamic.

Take a look at your second article you posted to see why exactly people reject such simplistic associations Sasaki. On the very first page with the quote you reproduced, the article said:

The origins of female circumcision and female genital mutilation are unknown. It is believed that female genital mutilation originated in Africa as far back as the fifth century B.C. and has taken place in ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, Arabia, and Tsarist Russia. Ancient female Egyptian mummies were found to be circumcised, "suggesting that it was practiced as a sign of distinction" (Nour, 2000, para. 5). It was used in England during the Victorian period to treat psychological disorders and to prevent masturbation in women (Hopkins, 1999). In Europe and in the United States as late as the 1930's, "removal of the clitoris or prepuce was performed to treat clitoral enlargement, redundancy, hysteria, lesbianism, and erotomania" (Nour, para. 5).

J. Marion Sims, the "Father of Gynecology" (in the U.S.) endorsed the practice of clitorectomies well into the twentieth century. The practice of clitorectomy for psychiatric disorders became popular with Freudian psychoanalysis. Oophorectomy, or removal of the ovaries, also known as female castration, and hysterectomies were widespread as a cure for psychological disorders and continued in the U.S. until the mid-1940's.

ESPECIALLY if the intent is to actually do something about these problems, the first step is understanding very clearly where they come from, and how exactly they relate to religion. And my major point: having a nuanced view is going to be a lot more effective in combating it it, not to mention you avoid unnecessarily pissing a lot of people off with factually and politically incorrect statements.

[Fragony]

Yeah and that is where you are willing to make an exception, can be anything but, good job .