New factions?

[B-Wing]

I believe it's a camel now, too. Unless bobbin can provide evidence to the contrary.

[abou]

I always thought it was a tapir.

[athanaric]

It's the beast with two backs...

[stratigos vasilios]

If you throw it into paint and inverse colours does it make it easier to trace?...

[tarchnal]

Longtime unregistered lurker here with some faction ideas... Just can't leave it well enough alone.

The Belgae are mentioned often, and I doubt that they would be left out. They could also be some sort of counter to the new Pritanoi faction regarding the British Isles - afaik there were Belgae in modern southern England at the time (or later anyway). The Nervii or the Bellovaci are likely to be in to represent the Belgae, as their territories are already in as named provinces in EB1. More so the Nervii than the Bellovaci as the former would be more isolated from the Arverni/Aedui than the latter.

Ardiaei Illyrians are also mentioned often, and not without reason. They would reach their zenith not long into the game's timeframe, after which they ended up under Roman influence. If an Illyrian tribe doesn't make it in I doubt that the Balkans would be left without a new faction, so I also slam the celts in Tylis in there, those who were lead by Commontorios (?) following the invasion of Macedonia and Greece. Only one or the other however.

Another faction in Iberia is likely I believe, the area is quite empty and a new faction here might stop the Lusotani powerhouse from emerging every game following Carthage's departure. The Vaccaei (Pallantia) or the Arevaci (Numantia) are probably in hte spotlight here; both were prominent tribes during Rome's adventures in the region, probably Arevaci moreso than the Vaccaei. The Cantabri has been on the wall, but what did they do at this time?

The Bastarnae are popular - they might even have been confirmed? - and would just like the Boii contend with the Sweboz for central and eastern Europe.

The Bosporan Greeks (already confirmed?) would end up in a spot that is currently empty and just keeps rebelling to the KH over and over. The Spartocid dynasty were in power already at this time, were they not? Would be a nice competitor with the Sauros aswell.

Some other faction in the Caucasus to fight Hayasdan abit could be useful. Some Ibero tribe (Colchis, Kartli?) or Media Atropatene could perhaps fill the void, but the question is if the region wouldn't become too crowded.

Then I am thinking of an Arabian faction, specifically the Nabateans or Hadramaut. Ma'in would perhaps be a possibility aswell, but their avenues of expansion would be very limited with the Sab'yn blocking them in the south and the Ptollies and SE in the north. Might argue that the Nabateans would be in the same position, but atleast they won't immediately border another one-province faction and having small possibilities to expand. Hadramaut could focus on expansion towards modern Oman, and Saba in the other direction.

As a last one, though this really is an 8th idea, an eastern faction could be necesary for balancing purposes. With 9 new factions spread out across the world, the area running on the other side of the Caspian Sea, the eastern steppe, Iran and India would only be split between 4 factions. Not nearly as crowded as the rest. But I just can't figure out a regional power worth to add beyond some AS or Mauryan satrap, and none of the former rose to prominence and the latter would likely demand a culture slot, plus that I have no clue if any Mauryan governors revolted. The Mauryan Empire itself is also a no-no.

Those are my 2 (8?) cents.

[paullus]

Hi tarchnal! Welcome to posting, and those are nice 2 cents! We've already confirmed four factions I think: the Bosporans are one, plus Pergamon, Numidia, and the Boii.

Just curious, but on what grounds do you prefer the Tylis kingdom over the Scordisci? And similarly, why the Ardiaei over the Dardanians?

[tarchnal]

Hi tarchnal! Welcome to posting, and those are nice 2 cents! We've already confirmed four factions I think: the Bosporans are one, plus Pergamon, Numidia, and the Boii.

Thanks!

Just curious, but on what grounds do you prefer the Tylis kingdom over the Scordisci? And similarly, why the Ardiaei over the Dardanians?

On my prefered factions, I should perhaps start by saying that I am no historian. It is a hobby of mine to read whatever I find, but what I find might not be the best sources. On the Scordisci, I believe that with the Getai to their east and the Boii to their west they would be in a very tight position with few directions to expand, so solely from a gameplay purpose I would prefer some other faction in the Balkan area. Tylis would also be in a tight spot, but Thrace is mostly up for grabs still and they would only border Makedonia from the beginning, whereas the Scordisci would border both the Getai and the Boii (with the city of Vindobona). However if the map changes in the area and borders, settlements, amount of provinces etc is tweaked the Scordisci might have a place there. But what do I know? :)

On the Ardiaei, they were to my knowledge the most prominent of the Illyrian tribes. The Dardanians were either on par or atleast a close second, but now that you mention them they could probably fill the spot equally well. Also, wouldn't the inclusion of the Ardiaei demand Scodra as their capital, which should be if not in atleast at the border of the Illyria Hellenike province, which belongs to Epirus? Might become too crowded city-wise with them there, so the Dardanians are probably better.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Could it be a stylized version of this Nerviian coin?


Another example of Belgae coinage, this one of the Atuatuci

[Moros]

I gues it could. But then again you can see alot in it, if you use some imagination.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'll take that as a yes then

[Chelovyek]

Not forgetting the Boii.

Regarding Tarchnal, have you thought about the city of Kyrene? Some other people mentioned that it would act as good buffer between the Carthiginians and the Ptolemaioi, and it declared its independence in 276 BC. That said, the newly-declared Massylii would act as that buffer, surely? Good suggestions, though.

[Baconpølse]

What about Khwarezm? It seems that it was an independent kingdom around 272 BC. It would help fill out the eastern portions of the map nicely, though I dont know if there is enough information on them to recreate them as a faction.

[Ludens]

Regarding Tarchnal, have you thought about the city of Kyrene? Some other people mentioned that it would act as good buffer between the Carthiginians and the Ptolemaioi, and it declared its independence in 276 BC.

Kyrene is unlikely because it wasn't an empire on it's own: it was ruled by a rebellious Ptolemean. In the unlikely event that Magas conquered Egypt and held of his Seleucid "allies", he would simply have resumed the Ptolemean Empire. Also, faction slots are too valuable to use them for "buffers". Beefing up the rebels can work just as well for that.

tarchnal, welcome to the .Org!

I have a few comments about your faction selection. IIRC the Pritanoi review says there is no evidence for a strong Belgaen presence in southern England until a century or so after the start of the mod. And, again, they are not going to be added just to annoy one faction. The continental Belgae were seriously considered for EB1, so they may be included this time. On the other hand, don't we have enough Celts already?

As for a new Iberian faction, I'd say this is bound to be, probably in the form of the Arevacci. They have already been included in EB1 in the form of Moskon and his zombie army. The Spartocid Kingdom has been confirmed; the Basternae, on the other hand, have been emphatically denied by a team member. I still hope, though... There also have been hints of a new Eastern faction and another Semitic culture faction, although I have no idea were to place these.

Baconpølse, welcome as well. Could you provide some more info about the Chorasian/Khwarezm kingdom? I don't think we have much evidence for that corner of the map.

[Baconpølse]

Thanks Ludens;)

I dont know too much about the Chorasmian kingdom really. Just came across a reference to it while reading about Alexander the great. Though from a quick search on google it seems like it must have been fairly prosperous at the time of EB. Apparantly archeology shows that a large stretches of canals, as well as a large number of settlements and fortifications, were built before and around the time of EB. Dont know if there is enough info to make a viable faction, but I just wanted to throw out a more unusual guess;)

Here is some info I found on the web (Cant say that I know anything about the quality of the sources though):
http://www.iranica.com/articles/chorasmia-i
This one has some nice pictures of historical sites, though only some of them are from the relevant timeframe:
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...izem/page2.htm
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...izem/page3.htm
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...izem/page4.htm

[Cyclops]

helpful links

Interesting links, I love that stuff. The main points here seem to be:

The post-Achaemenid interlude and the nomad invasions. In the 4th-3rd centuries b.c.e. Chorasmia experienced a great economic and cultural upsurge, possibly owing to liberation from the tax burden imposed by the Achaemenids...labeled, rather inappropriately, the “Kang-qu” culture

and

the “Chorasmian era” began in the 30s (Livshits, 1984, p. 253) or 40s (Vaĭnberg,1977, p. 79) of the 1st century c.e

I'm guessing at the EB start date there's not a "Chorasmian kingdom". The territory overlaps with Parthia so its probably a part of that polity at game's start.

A Chorasmian kingdom emerges amid the turmoil of the Saka influx that throws down the Parthians and pushes the Baktrians over the Hindu Kush and out of history. I guess there's a case for a Chorasmian kingdom in a "late period" EB mod, but thats a not on offer afaik.

[Genava]

Arrian mentioned the arrival of Pharasmanes, king of the Chorasmians, with a cavalry force of some fifteen hundred men. Pharasmanes offered to guide Alexander to the Black Sea should he wish to campaign there; though the conqueror declined the offer, he did conclude a “friendly pact” with Pharasmanes. Quintus Curtius gave the name of the Chorasmian king as Phrataphernes, who joined with the Massagetai and Dacians in sending people to assure the king of his submission. From this account it appears that he did not personally travel to Alexander’s headquarters and incidentally that he enjoyed a certain degree of hegemony over his nomadic neighbors. In fact Pharasmanes was Phrataphernes’s son (Pauly-Wissowa XX/1, col. 739, s.v. Phradasmanes), probably designated king by Arrian in order to glorify Alexander.

The entire complex was destroyed by fire in the 2nd century b.c.e., along with many other Chorasmian strongholds and settlements, probably during the mass migration of steppe tribes that is known to have caused the collapse of the Greco-Bactrian state and to have brought Parthia to the brink of destruction.

And here: http://www.livius.org/cg-cm/chorasmia/chorasmia.html

Not much later, the Chorasmian kings started to mint coins, which were inspired by the coins of the Seleucid kings and -after c.240- Bactria, which was ruled by people who claimed Greek descent. The tombs of the kings of this period have been found at Koj-Krylgan-Kala.

[Ludens]

Interesting links, I love that stuff. The main points here seem to be:

The post-Achaemenid interlude and the nomad invasions. In the 4th-3rd centuries b.c.e. Chorasmia experienced a great economic and cultural upsurge, possibly owing to liberation from the tax burden imposed by the Achaemenids...labeled, rather inappropriately, the “Kang-qu” culture
(...)

A Chorasmian kingdom emerges amid the turmoil of the Saka influx that throws down the Parthians and pushes the Baktrians over the Hindu Kush and out of history. I guess there's a case for a Chorasmian kingdom in a "late period" EB mod, but thats a not on offer afaik.

There is actually an old post by Teleklos over at the TWC mentioning the Kangju (Kang-qu?) as one of the alternatives considered for the faction slot that eventually went to the Saba. The Wikipedia article is very vague, though, so I wasn't sure what to make of it.

[Lvcretivs]

Concerning Khwarezm/Chorasmia - and ancient Central Asia in general - don't forget the UNESCO-funded History of Civilizations of Central Asia II: The development of sedentary and nomadic civilizations, 700 B.C. to A.D. 250 (online available in it's entirety at http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/001...7/105703eo.pdf) - especially the interesting and informative chapter about 'States in North-Western Central Asia'.

[Genava]

BIG THANKS Lvcretivs!

I think Chorasmia would be great, it's a powerful kingdom until ~100 BC. But there is a lack of informations about political and civil structures and warfare.

edit: I find this reference: http://openlibrary.org/works/OL12947...ient_Chorasmia

[MeinPanzer]

Chorasmia definitely gets my vote. There's actually quite a bit of info out there concerning the organization and broader history of the kingdom during the EB timeframe (on par with a lot of other pre/proto-historical factions already in EB). We have a few names of kings (one was found inscribed on a silver vessel from a Sargat grave in northern Central Asia which dates to the early 3rd c. BC, for instance), and some interesting writing on ostraka already from the end of the EB timeframe which tells us, for instance, that they had slaves. In addition, we know quite a bit about the army of the Chorasmians thanks to figural representations from pottery and some actual burials (i.e. Chirik Rabat) and stray finds. A number of well-excavated fortified centres and temple complexes have been found, and there is evidence of widespread agriculture with canal systems as already mentioned. They would in essence be a settled Saka faction, with Saka units but fortified centres, and so they could be an interesting faction to play to counter the Parthians or Saka.

[olly]

Does anyone know what is happening with Syrucuse? Have they been ruled out at all? Just would really like to see them in if possible as I would love that campaign.

Does anyone think any other greek city states could be included apart from Pergamon or the Bosporans? I do like starting off small and am not too keen on the celts, iberians or germans you see. Although I always end playing and having a cracking time.

[Mediolanicus]

Does anyone know what is happening with Syrucuse? Have they been ruled out at all? Just would really like to see them in if possible as I would love that campaign.

Does anyone think any other greek city states could be included apart from Pergamon or the Bosporans? I do like starting off small and am not too keen on the celts, iberians or germans you see. Although I always end playing and having a cracking time.

I don't think Syracuse will be in, because they didn't do all that much...

Pergamon and the Bosporans are already confirmed... Just look at the FAQ and the previews.

[Moros]

Yup Pergamon, Bosphorans, Boii, Numidia and Basternae have already been confirmed.

[stratigos vasilios]

Yup Pergamon, Bosphorans, Boii, Numidia and Basternae have already been confirmed.

Basternae?

I don't think they have been confirmed or denied in the thread?

: I would love to see the Bastarnae, but their inclusion has been denied repeatedly.

but...

With Aedi's invaluable help, producing an accurate and interesting Bastarnae faction isn't all the difficult.

Moros you must be playing a mean trick on me?

[tarchnal]

tarchnal, welcome to the .Org!

I have a few comments about your faction selection. IIRC the Pritanoi review says there is no evidence for a strong Belgaen presence in southern England until a century or so after the start of the mod. And, again, they are not going to be added just to annoy one faction. The continental Belgae were seriously considered for EB1, so they may be included this time. On the other hand, don't we have enough Celts already?

As for a new Iberian faction, I'd say this is bound to be, probably in the form of the Arevacci. They have already been included in EB1 in the form of Moskon and his zombie army. The Spartocid Kingdom has been confirmed; the Basternae, on the other hand, have been emphatically denied by a team member. I still hope, though... There also have been hints of a new Eastern faction and another Semitic culture faction, although I have no idea were to place these.

I knew that there were Belgae in southern Britain during the timeframe, I just wasn't sure exactly when they got there. Still, Britan would be likely expansion route for a Belgae tribe as they went there historically, as part of their victory condition and perhaps as some gov2 (or even gov1?) province. That would inevitably put them at odds with the Pritanoi, something Britain lacks with the current versions.

I agree on the Arevaci, they are the most fitting as a celtiberian tribe, and as you say are already present in the game. I had read somewhere that the Bosporans were already confirmed, which is great due to their interesting position, but it is sad to hear that the Bastarnae might not make it in, as the units they have in EB already are brilliant.

On Chorasmia, they would be based in Khiva wouldn't they, or atleast very close to it? From what I have read about them they lived south of the Aral Sea, which would put them straight in current Pahlavan territory. Perhaps putting two weak factions too close to eachother might be too risky balancewise? If they enter the scene I'm sure that the EB-team would find a way around it (they kinda always do) but it looks like there's a a string of uncertainty somewhere. They'd be interesting for sure, and they would certainly spice things up in the East.

[Morte66]

Does anyone know what is happening with Syrucuse? Have they been ruled out at all? Just would really like to see them in if possible as I would love that campaign.

Does anyone think any other greek city states could be included apart from Pergamon or the Bosporans? I do like starting off small and am not too keen on the celts, iberians or germans you see. Although I always end playing and having a cracking time.

The Bosporians and Pergammon are in, I think Massalia and Syracuse have been ruled out -- they weren't significant in the timeframe.

I like small starting factions too. I've faked Massalia, Syracuse and the Bosporian Kingdom in EB1 by insta-migrating the KH, and Mauretania using Saba with a change of bodyguards.

Syracuse was too easy and a bit dull -- capture Lilybeo ASAP and you get secure flanks with a single narrow front against Rome, with plenty of mountain passes and rivers to exploit. KH recruiting is very good around there, arguably better than Greece, with the semi-elite Syracusan hoplites from a level 3 MIC in your hometown and Samnite heavies with AP swords in southern Italy.

Massalia is murder, there are too many enemies in too many directions. I can see why they became Roman clients in real history. And there's no heavy cavalry to start. And from a gaming standpoint the obvious people to invade are the Arverni, which feels a terrible waste because they're that rare faction who keep a peace deal.

The Bosporions out of Pantikapaion are a good compromise, strategically challenging but playable. The Helleno-Skythian unit mix is different from everything else, hoplites and horse archers, plus your neigbours (Getae, Mak, Sauro, Hai) have widely varied militaries. It's an extremely refereshing jolt of gameplay. [Contrast Pergamonn, another successor military fighting other successor militaries, sigh.]

Mauretania is fun for a short campaign, with the constant motion skirmishers and cavalry that pretty much dizzy the enemy to death. But I wouldn't want to play a long game with their tech tree and recruiting. I gather they've been ruled out, apparently one non-Carthage faction around there was enough.

I think the city of Emporion could be interesting to play, like Massalia with a Hellenic/Celtic/Iberian mix and without the early strategic claustrophobia. But having them build a Greek empire seems more historically far-fetched than Massalia/Syracuse. I get the impression they were basically some Greek merchants and sailors tacked on the side of an Iberian province, who got lucky when the EB map was drawn.

[Phalanx300]

Yup Pergamon, Bosphorans, Boii, Numidia and Basternae have already been confirmed.

Bastarnae?

[Cyclops]

There's a post buried wayyyy back in this thread (or one like it) outlining likely critera for new factions based on what was stated in EB as the "near misses". IIRC generally a good stock of AORs or an iconic unit is a fair indicator, and the ones to come true so far are the Numidians (a bunch of AORs in EB) Bosporus and Boii (outstanding iconic unit for each).

I think the Belgae were mentioned as a near miss so I'd guess they are a lock.

However Syracuse has been ruled out and I think that was one of the near-misses too, and it certainly has an iconic unit (d'oh!)...however I still think Bastarnae are likely.

... I've faked .. Syracuse ... in EB1 by insta-migrating the KH, and Mauretania using Saba ....

Same here, both interesting campaigns. The Mauretanian one is a corker, like you say swirling skirmishers and a bit of grunt from the elephants (I kept the Saba BG because I don't know how to change them and I needed someone to storm all the Karthis cities) ).

Soooo glad Numidia is in.

[Epimetheus]

I have seen a lot of posts claiming Syracuse has been definitively ruled out, however, I haven't been able to find any posts by team members actually saying this. Could somebody please get an actual quote of this? Because I haven't found it anywhere I've searched in the threads dealing with this topic.

[Moros]

Well I can post that they are ruled out. But only if you ask nicely.