Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Fragony]

Moreover, 9/11 is not a Muslim "achievement". It is Al-Qaida's achievement. It is deeply concerning that after 9 years of history and 13 pages of this godforsaken thread you can't appreciate that.

Not so straightforward as you like to think, ask them yourself scratch the surface a little. Ask Cute Wolf how this mosque is looked upon in his country, also as a victory. Just being able tro pray in the streets of Paris or on Capital Hill is seen as a victory. You are looking at this with western glasses, the Islam is a religion with a mission, so even something as harmless as praying on the street is a victory, however small it may be.

[HoreTore]

Well .. I mean, we have aleays had zoning, and building codes, and local codes, and all sorts of rules and regulations. Heck, that's what keeps my brother wealthy; he negotiates leases for cell phone towers. It's complicated.

So I don't understand how the very public huffing and puffing over the Cordoba House changes the equation for America as a whole. We're more free than most places, but we don't bathe in absoulte freedom. For total, unfettered do-as-you-please, you pretty much have to exist in anarchy.

But this case isn't violating the building codes, is it? This is a simple case of one group of people deciding that they don't want another group of people around. Something that only we euros used to do.

[Fragony]

But this case isn't violating the building codes, is it? This is a simple case of one group of people deciding that they don't want another group of people around. Something that only we euros used to do.

Well don't they have point, nobody so far has disputed the right to build it, but only communicated why it's inconsiderate (which people who want nothing but dialogue ignore), or why they think that it is a crown jewel (it is)

[rory_20_uk]

But this case isn't violating the building codes, is it? This is a simple case of one group of people deciding that they don't want another group of people around. Something that only we euros used to do.

Is that a joke I missed?

[Banquo's Ghost]

A lot of the arguments in this thread remind me of how Irishmen were treated on the streets of Britain back in the Seventies. Or the characterisation of Roman Catholics in the same country over four centuries. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[rory_20_uk]

Or Irishmen and Catholics in the USA of course.

[Fragony]

A lot of the arguments in this thread remind me of how Irishmen were treated on the streets of Britain back in the Seventies. Or the characterisation of Roman Catholics in the same country over four centuries. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Do muslims get attacked or surpressed here? Nope. They have nothing to complain about. We do though. Meet a fundie http://www.tangle.com/view_video?vie...eabea1ceb73e4&

And no that's not just there. I don't understand these people, but they have no business here.

If a neo-nazi said the same the shrieking would be clawing out your ears, but on this the silence is deafening.

[Meneldil]

Do muslims get attacked or surpressed here? Nope. They have nothing to complain about. We do though. Meet a fundie http://www.tangle.com/view_video?vie...eabea1ceb73e4&

And no that's not just there. I don't understand these people, but they have no business here.

If a neo-nazi said the same the shrieking would be clawing out your ears, but on this the silence is deafening.

Honestly, though I hate Islam as much as you do, what's the point of this video? Some looney is having a conference in some **** hole and talks to other looneys? Good for him.

Much less threatening than the constant attacks on secularity we have to face in Europe.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Horetore:

Almost all parties are now acknowledging that this center can be built and that no law, ordinance, or regulation is being broken thereby. Efforts to legislate or zone change to stop it will probably not be attempted and would fail in court if attempted (as they should). Current efforts are to lobby public opinion etc. so as to persuade the builder NOT to complete the project. Such an effort at persuasion is perfectly within the bounds of our republic.


All of us are in an ongoing quest to define our identities; to answer the question 'who am I?' Part of that definition arises by comparison, noting that we are NOT such-and-such. All too often, this is conflated with we are better than such-and-such. Some of that sentiment is at play here.

[HoreTore]

Horetore:

Almost all parties are now acknowledging that this center can be built and that no law, ordinance, or regulation is being broken thereby. Efforts to legislate or zone change to stop it will probably not be attempted and would fail in court if attempted (as they should). Current efforts are to lobby public opinion etc. so as to persuade the builder NOT to complete the project. Such an effort at persuasion is perfectly within the bounds of our republic.

Ah, wonderful! My faith in america is restored.

All that remains noe then, is for you guys to spread that undeerstanding over here, where every time someone wants to build a mosque the oublic goes insane and actually has to power to stop the construction...

[Hax]

I think you are buddhist? allready convert to muslim?

Hurr durr hax has muslim family he will convurt durr.

No, my father and his brothers didn't use to pray before they reached age fifty, ever. They weren't "mocked" at all.

[al Roumi]

Not so straightforward as you like to think, ask them yourself scratch the surface a little. Ask Cute Wolf how this mosque is looked upon in his country, also as a victory. Just being able tro pray in the streets of Paris or on Capital Hill is seen as a victory. You are looking at this with western glasses, the Islam is a religion with a mission, so even something as harmless as praying on the street is a victory, however small it may be.

I don't think we have covered this particular point this time round in these circular discussions we have here on Islam. I have some very good muslim friends, some quite devout, others not so much. And I certainly do "scratch the surface" of issues with them, kind of hard not to these days right?

I don't think 9/11 is seen as a vitory for Islam. The only Muslims I know to have said that are Al-Qaida or another violent extremist Muslim group.

I do however know alot of people who'se opinions, whilst abhoring the loss of life in 9/11 and other attacks, might align more or less with the "blowback" theory. E.g. that one way or another, the US had something coming.

[Lemur]

Fun factoid for the morning: There is already a functioning strip club within two blocks of Ground Zero. Thus proving Lemur's law, that boobies are always going to be more acceptable than religion.

Internet reviewers seem to like New York Dolls best, due to its sexy, disproportionately Russian staff, mirrored stage and purportedly high-quality lap dances.

[HoreTore]

Fun factoid for the morning: There is already a functioning strip club within two blocks of Ground Zero. Thus proving Lemur's law, that boobies are always going to be more acceptable than religion.

Internet reviewers seem to like New York Dolls best, due to its sexy, disproportionately Russian staff, mirrored stage and purportedly high-quality lap dances.

I see your strip club, and raise you one janet jackson nipple.

[Lemur]

Not sure I'm getting ya there, Hore.

Some good, intelligent commentary coming out this morning. It's as though a squadron of smart people woke up and noticed the hubub. Samples:

By couching the present debate in terms of “sensitivity,” “symbolism” and “offensiveness,” certain elements on the right have taken up the uncharacteristic mantle of political correctness and, in effect, given a free hand to a subject worthy of more discriminating scrutiny. All I want to do, Rauf has been able to say, with high backing, is build a house of worship in the one country that takes confessional pluralism for granted. What could be more American than that? [...]

More troubling to me are two episodes in Rauf’s career that suggest, if not a practical alliance with Islamism, then at least a strong eagerness to earn the trust of Islamists, whether out of financial or face-saving motive. The first is Rauf’s participation in the Perdana Global Peace Organisation, which bills itself as a pacifist lobby group seeking to “criminalize war” but is really the brainchild of former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, a man whose greatest compliment to the Jewish people was to credit them with a methodology for world domination that he thought instructive for the forthcoming Islamic attempt at same. [...]

The second troubling spot on Rauf’s c.v. is his certification of Iran’s theocracy. [...] Rauf published this paean to the captive mind just as many hundreds of peaceful democratic activists were being clubbed and shot on the streets of Tehran. According to the Iranian “rule of law,” torture and rape are also permissible forms of punishment for people who exercise their right to be incensed at a pantomime of self-determination.

(For the record, I find this the most damning thing found yet. All of the various "he associates with" arguments have been kinda thin, but him endorsing the mullahs in the middle of the Green Revolution shows a pro-totalitarian side to Rauf that I had not previously seen.)

Another good commentary:

Those smiling photos of the good Imam at a Hizb ut-Tahrir conference at the very least suggest that the man is naive to the point of lunacy about what that organization represents and the likelihood of spreading moderation among its members through any form of outreach short of a Hellfire missile. [...]

I am all for pointing out good reasons to be offended by Imam Feisal's political opinions, but one argument that keeps coming up is actually not compelling at all. Feisal has been roundly criticized for saying the the September 11 attacks were a "reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” Feisal has said many stupid things, but these words can hardly be numbered among them by any enthusiast of the Bush Doctrine, given that they're indistinguishable from the standard neoconservative critique of American foreign policy prior to September 11. This point is explained approvingly by none other than William Kristol:

Bush decided that, for reasons both good and bad, we had made too many accommodations with dictators; we had turned a blind eye to Saudi Arabia’s export of Wahabbi Islam; we had made deals with dictators who seemed to be pro-American for various reasons and who seemed to be keeping the peace with Israel in some cases, and for various reasons. The price we were paying was too great; too many of these dictators were in bed with terrorists; too many of these dictators were exporting terror and extremism as a way of keeping themselves safe at home. The reaction to these dictators was, in many cases, leading to greater anti-Americanism, greater extremism and greater terrorism. Bush decided fundamentally that this cycle had to be broken. As he said recently, this was a break from 60 years ago – six decades of US policy in the Middle East.

Now, whether Imam Feisal intended with these words to express full-throated support for the Bush Doctrine, I do not know and rather doubt, but let's not pretend that we are strangers to the idea he expressed; we are not.

[Ronin]

Fun factoid for the morning: There is already a functioning strip club within two blocks of Ground Zero. Thus proving Lemur's law, that boobies are always going to be more acceptable than religion.

Internet reviewers seem to like New York Dolls best, due to its sexy, disproportionately Russian staff, mirrored stage and purportedly high-quality lap dances.

well....but strip clubs are hallowed ground too...so that makes sense! :P

[Ronin]

Fun factoid for the morning: There is already a functioning strip club within two blocks of Ground Zero. Thus proving Lemur's law, that boobies are always going to be more acceptable than religion.

Internet reviewers seem to like New York Dolls best, due to its sexy, disproportionately Russian staff, mirrored stage and purportedly high-quality lap dances.

well....but strip clubs are hallowed ground too...so that makes sense! :P

[HoreTore]

Lemur: i doubt a priest at the superior bowl would've caused as much trouble as mrs. Jackson's exposed boobie...

[The Celtic Viking]

Ah, wonderful! My faith in america is restored.

All that remains noe then, is for you guys to spread that undeerstanding over here, where every time someone wants to build a mosque the oublic goes insane and actually has to power to stop the construction...

Yeah, because we really need more of these guys.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, because we really need more of these guys.

Uhm... What does punk kids have to do with this?

[The Celtic Viking]

Uhm... What does punk kids have to do with this?

Punk kids? Punk kids?!

...

I'm speechless. Would you have said the same if it instead of muslims were neo-nazis shooting rockets and throwing pipebombs at jews?

[Hax]

Punk kids? Punk kids?!

...

I'm speechless. Would you have said the same if it instead of muslims were neo-nazis shooting rockets and throwing pipebombs at jews?

Can we please get back to seperating religion and politics? By equating Muslims to all being convinced of the same political ideology, we are playing right into the hand of Muslim extremists.

[Beskar]

Can we please get back to seperating religion and politics? By equating Muslims to all being convinced of the same political ideology, we are playing right into the hand of Muslim extremists.

and the Islamophobes too. Completely opposite sides which want the same goal, to destroy the moderators and remove reason from any debates.

[The Celtic Viking]

Can we please get back to seperating religion and politics?

What do you mean, "get back to"? I don't think we've ever been there, and I don't think it's even possible.

By equating Muslims to all being convinced of the same political ideology, we are playing right into the hand of Muslim extremists.

So we should just ignore these things because not all muslims do this? See what I mean when I say that religious moderates are the ones giving the extremists something to hide behind?

I never ever said that all muslims believe this, nor did I imply it, so all you did was ignore and strawman.

and the Islamophobes too.

Islamophobia is a word made up for the sole intent of quelling criticism of islam. If someone criticizes islam, he's an islamophobe. I wonder why no one ever talks about "christianophobes", or "judaismphobes"...

[Hax]

I never ever said that all muslims believe this, nor did I imply it, so all you did was ignore and strawman.

I'm sorry, was I mentioning you?

[The Celtic Viking]

I'm sorry, was I mentioning you?

You kind of quoted my post, you know.

[Ser Clegane]

I wonder why no one ever talks about "christianophobes", or "judaismphobes"...

I think the popular term for the latter is "antisemite"...

[The Celtic Viking]

I think the popular term for the latter is "antisemite"...

No, because "anti-semite" is against the people known as jews, not against the jewish religion. Nice try, though.

[al Roumi]

What do you mean, "get back to"? I don't think we've ever been there, and I don't think it's even possible.

So we should just ignore these things because not all muslims do this? See what I mean when I say that religious moderates are the ones giving the extremists something to hide behind?

Yes, I see where you are going with this... What a good idea, persecute the lot to get at the awful fraction within their population.

[Ser Clegane]

No, because "anti-semite" is against the people known as jews, not against the jewish religion. Nice try, though.

Perhaps you should look up some definitions on what the term "islamophobia" is commonly* used for?

* and please do not start any semantic discussions as it is currently done with the term anti-semite - the common usage of a term is relevant.