Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[al Roumi]

Who is talking about al-queda? Well, extremists is a vague word. But you don't need to send a message to the non-extremists (people without any radical beliefs). Because they don't have the radical beliefs.

I disagree, AQ's propaganda is intended to win it more support from the majority of Muslims - who are not extremists. AQ's narrative of a global oppression and exploitation of Muslims is intended to convince Muslims that the West is out to get them. If you don't counter that message, and engage with the majority who are not "radicalisaed" or "extremist" then you basicaly give AQ the run of the green.

You are acting as if there is al-queda, and regular muslims. You say that the al-queda can't be talked to and the vast majority of muslims need help "resisting" extremism. I disagree with that. You are skipping the group of people who have radical beliefs, but are not violent. They are the ones who need to targeted in the war of ideas.

You are on to something here, but it's also very tricky. For starters, how do you define a non-violent extremist? I guess the non-violent bit is the simplest, but some opinions in this thread would have any Muslim not eating pork and drinking beer as an extremist, or indeed wearing a hijab! Secondly, on exactly what would you engage with these "extremists"? Their grievances against the west, Palestine/Israel? Honestly, it would have to be of that order. Or maybe the focus should be on non-violent resolution of conflicts? i.e. finding a way to reconcile the west with morw hardline Islamic principles -I don't mean adopting them ourselves, but learning to live alongside each other. Again, resolution of this type would imply a measure of compromise on both sides, hardly an easy sell with Org patrons either I fear!

Watch the 60 minutes video I posted a few pages back. That guy is doing just that. He travels around the world giving talks and holding seminars where he tries to talk people out of the belief (and show them how to talk others out of the belief) that america hates muslims, or that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy by the americans to give them an excuse to go to iraq and wipe out all the muslims there. He isn't building a $100 million dollar interfaith cultural center and hoping that people with radical beliefs stop by so he can convince them.

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe this centre for cultural exchange isn't just about "educating muslims in how to live in the west", but also about educating westerners in how to live with muslims? Surely exchange is a two way process, not just a dictation of terms...

[Cute Wolf]

leftie is actually create a big discrimination towards religions:

When a Christian said "GOD HATES FAGS", they will ridicule Christianity as a whole...
When a Muslim said "ALLOH HATES CHRISTIANS, JEWS, NON -MUSLIMS". they will suggest to "tolerate" them...

[Fragony]

leftie is actually create a big discrimination towards religions:

When a Christian said "GOD HATES FAGS", they will ridicule Christianity as a whole...
When a Muslim said "ALLOH HATES CHRISTIANS, JEWS, NON -MUSLIMS". they will suggest to "tolerate" them...

Man are you being narrow minded.

Yeah everything leftist loath in christianity they will turn a blind eye to when it comes to islam. Muslims hate the west they always have, and today the lefties have too much time they will support anyone if they get some excitement and feel like revolutionaries, unlike the people of Iran they know they will get away with it. They know they won't get raped and hanged, daddy is a judge after all, smashing windows is soooo much fun if you know that daddy&mommy protects it's offspring. Bored rich kids.

[Cute Wolf]

Man are you being narrow minded.

Yeah everything leftist loath in christianity they will turn a blind eye to when it comes to islam. Muslims hate the west they always have, and today the lefties have too much time they will support anyone if they get some excitement and feel like revolutionaries, unlike the people of Iran they know they will get away with it. They know they won't get raped and hanged, daddy is a judge after all, smashing windows is soooo much fun if you know that daddy&mommy protects it's offspring. Bored rich kids.

yeah, all tolerance "supporters" here experience Islamic society better than those who lived in Asia, Africa, and every country that had muslim majority populance because they are the true supporters of democracy, yeah, fundamentalist muslims are a small fraction and they won't cause any bad things.... having your offsprings and future generations endure some "nasty" pranks and "funny" rules is not a factor of consideration, muslims breed slowly and never try to takeover the community...

[Lemur]

Muslims hate the west they always have

And you wonder why you keep getting accused of being against Islam generally. You kinda do it to yourself, friend.

[Fragony]

And you wonder why you keep getting accused of being against Islam generally. You kinda do it to yourself, friend.

I don't walk eggs mia muca, it is. A good muslim in our eyes is a bad one in theirs. There is no moderate islam, just as there is no moderate nazism, just good people.

[Lemur]

There is no moderate islam, just as there is no moderate nazism

So by this logic, moderate muslims are either not muslims or not moderate. They are either fake or lying; they can never operate in good faith.

And a gratuitous comparison to Nazism. Lovely.

-edit-

P.S.: This is the fifth or sixth time you've called me "mia muca." "Mia" is obvious, but "muca"?

[Cute Wolf]

So by this logic, moderate muslims are either not muslims or not moderate. They are either fake or lying; they can never operate in good faith.

And a gratuitous comparison to Nazism. Lovely.

-edit-

P.S.: This is the fifth or sixth time you've called me "mia muca." "Mia" is obvious, but "muca"?

moderate muslim have an obvious sign, they won't refuse when you gave them beer and ate pork just like anything else. They understand quranic law are meant to be interpreted metaphorically, and they don't wear hijab.

[Fragony]

So by this logic, moderate muslims are either not muslims or not moderate.

yes, that is what I mean

[Rhyfelwyr]

moderate muslim have an obvious sign, they won't refuse when you gave them beer and ate pork just like anything else. They understand quranic law are meant to be interpreted metaphorically, and they don't wear hijab.

Surely a Muslim that doesn't drink or eat pork could still be considered moderate? They are hardly radical things to do.

Also, with the quranic law, the argument against following it literally that I usually hear is not that it is metaphorical, but that it reflects the social customs of 7th century Arabia, and has to be read in that context. For example with the prohibition on pork, the reason desert religions (Judaism/Islam) have that is because pork is particularly prone to becoming disease-ridden in the hot climates. So a Muslim living in a cooler climate like Britain would then realise pork is not unclean and could eat it, without following the quran literally.

[Cute Wolf]

Surely a Muslim that doesn't drink or eat pork could still be considered moderate? They are hardly radical things to do.

Also, with the quranic law, the argument against following it literally that I usually hear is not that it is metaphorical, but that it reflects the social customs of 7th century Arabia, and has to be read in that context. For example with the prohibition on pork, the reason desert religions (Judaism/Islam) have that is because pork is particularly prone to becoming disease-ridden in the hot climates. So a Muslim living in a cooler climate like Britain would then realise pork is not unclean and could eat it, without following the quran literally.

Indonesian (and typical south-east asian) muslims drunk alcoholic beverages and ate pork and boars for more than 600 years in history, this cultural tradition however, are dying because some stupid saudi wahhabists start preach their fundamentalist views...

[Beskar]

So by this logic, moderate muslims are either not muslims or not moderate. They are either fake or lying; they can never operate in good faith.

And a gratuitous comparison to Nazism. Lovely.

It is an example of the "No true Muslim logical fallacy".

[Rhyfelwyr]

Indonesian (and typical south-east asian) muslims drunk alcoholic beverages and ate pork and boars for more than 600 years in history, this cultural tradition however, are dying because some stupid saudi wahhabists start preach their fundamentalist views...

Indonesia is quite unique in the Muslim world though, IIRC most of the Muslims there are 'Abangan' Muslims which means they follow a mix of Islam and local pagan beliefs. In which case, adopting ideas like refusing to drink alcohol could be seen as a sign of a literal intepretation of the quran.

But in most of the Muslim world not drinking alcohol is as much a cultural thing as it is religious. In the UK, only the most liberal Muslims would drink alcohol, but they are still far from being extreme, they otherwise are fully integrated, listen to western music, have their western clothes, have western friends etc. They just don't drink or eat pork, beacuse it is their culture if they come from the Arab world or Pakistan etc.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I disagree, AQ's propaganda is intended to win it more support from the majority of Muslims - who are not extremists. AQ's narrative of a global oppression and exploitation of Muslims is intended to convince Muslims that the West is out to get them. If you don't counter that message, and engage with the majority who are not "radicalisaed" or "extremist" then you basicaly give AQ the run of the green.

I agree that countering the message is the important thing...

You are on to something here, but it's also very tricky. For starters, how do you define a non-violent extremist? I guess the non-violent bit is the simplest, but some opinions in this thread would have any Muslim not eating pork and drinking beer as an extremist, or indeed wearing a hijab! Secondly, on exactly what would you engage with these "extremists"? Their grievances against the west, Palestine/Israel? Honestly, it would have to be of that order. Or maybe the focus should be on non-violent resolution of conflicts? i.e. finding a way to reconcile the west with morw hardline Islamic principles -I don't mean adopting them ourselves, but learning to live alongside each other. Again, resolution of this type would imply a measure of compromise on both sides, hardly an easy sell with Org patrons either I fear!

They guy on 60 minutes (who I'm basing all this on since it's the best source I've seen--he was at oxford and was recruited into one of the non-violent radical groups) said what needed to be done was to combat the narrative, the idea that the west wants to destroy islam and wipe it from the face of the earth. He goes around arguing against the narrative.

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe this centre for cultural exchange isn't just about "educating muslims in how to live in the west", but also about educating westerners in how to live with muslims? Surely exchange is a two way process, not just a dictation of terms...

Well, this kind of false equivalency is tempting. But we aren't talking about ordinary muslims or ordinary americans. I agree that the center isn't about educating muslims how to live in the west, it seems more about explaining islamic culture to muslims and americans. But attaching a "here, let's make sure you guys understand islamic culture" to 9/11 is awkward and insensitive.

[Hax]

They lived in Western world, and North African country that was de facto controlled heavily influenced by western world, now I kindly ask your family to start move in either Pakistan, Arab, Indonesia, Malaysia, Somalia, etc... or maybe you alone could start move in here, and when someone ask about your family, just said they are muslims but you are buddhist... well... uh, you don't understand Indonesian gossip, so that won't meant much for you.

I don't know whether you're trying to be sarcastic or not. So now Algeria isn't even a Muslim country anymore. Okay guys, so according to Cute Wolf, the only Muslim countries are countries where stabbing non-Muslims is totally cool. Let's stick with Saudi-Arabia and Iran, then. Libya? Muslim? Of course not.

or maybe you alone could start move in here, and when someone ask about your family, just said they are muslims but you are buddhist

What the hell do I care about what a few Indonesian idiots think about what my father believes. Who cares, seriously? Even my Muslim family doesn't care.

[Lemur]

A little fact-based angle on American and Islam. I'd say we're doing the integration thing substantially better than Europe. By Fragony's strange standard, this means our Muslims aren't Muslims.

In contrast to many of the minority Muslim populations in Europe, American Muslims embrace modernity, are better educated, and earn more money than their non-Muslim fellow citizens. A 2007 Pew poll suggests American Muslims are also doing just fine when it comes to assimilating and viewing themselves as part of America. According to the poll, just 5 percent of American Muslims express any level of support for Al Qaeda, and strong majorities condemn suicide attacks for any reason (80+ percent), and have a generally positive image of America and its promise for Muslims.

According to the poll, the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets unccomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts, many of whom converted in prison. To the extent that this particular subset of American Muslims is more prone to radicalism and less optimistic about America, it has nothing to do with immigration/assimilation problems, and seems more likely to stem from lingering hostility about race. That is, it's an American problem, not a Muslim problem.

[ajaxfetish]

In contrast to many of the minority Muslim populations in Europe, American Muslims embrace modernity, are better educated, and earn more money than their non-Muslim fellow citizens. [URL="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10330400"]

I'd imagine that's because of the shortage of majority-Muslim nations in our immediate neighborhood. If a Muslim wishes to immigrate to America, they have to be well motivated, have resources, and come a long distance. The huddled masses we have immigrating tend to be Roman Catholic rather than Muslim. I think poverty and oppression play a large role in fostering Muslim extremism, and the Muslim immigrants we get aren't as likely to have suffered these.

Ajax

[Beskar]

Yeah everything leftist loath in christianity they will turn a blind eye to when it comes to islam.

No they don't. They just dislike the Rightists who try to make out every Muslim is a mad-hatter extremist trying to bomb everyone.

Don't attempt to twist reality.

[Lemur]

Oh, sweet irony, it is definitely time to wind this thread down. It turns out the developers have no financing. This whole brouhaha, this tempest in a teacup, this manufactured outrage, this cable-news-friendly opinionfest, it's all for nothing.

They have no architect. They have no financing. They have no engineers. This is a big, steaming cup of vaporware. Of that estimated $100 million to develop their YMCA ripoff? Guess how much they have. Go ahead, guess. The Cordoba Initiative has a grand total of $18,255 available for the building. That won't get you a hot-swap bunk in a studio apartment in Manhattan. Details:

The [Cordoba Initiative] also lacks even the most basic real estate essentials: no blueprint, architect, lobbyist or engineer — and now operates amid crushing negative publicity. [...] “They could have obviously done a lot better in explaining who they are if they really wanted to get approval,” said publicist Ken Sunshine, a veteran of New York’s development wars. “There’s a real question as to whether there's money behind this."

“As I understand it there’s no money there,” said another prominent business official.

A prominent supporter of the project was blunt: “This is amateur hour,” he said.

“That’s why the idea that this is some big conspiracy is so silly,” said the supporter.

So the odds are highly against this thing ever getting built. To hear the conspiracists talking, I would have thought there were tens of millions of murky oil dollars sloshing around to fund this thing. Nope. The pre-tax salary of a burger-flipper would eclipse Cordoba Initiative's financing.

There's nothing left to discuss here, game over. If anybody wants to go on a long, relaxing ISLAM BAD post, I guess that's their privilege, but the subject Don C initially posted about is a mirage, an illusion, a daydream that somehow got to the zoning board.

[Beskar]

The Above Post

Lemur just won the thread.

[Fragony]

How does it change anything if funds were pulled? Still the same thing, the only difference being that it's probably not going to be built. They had the right to build it and now they can't. Saying wut.

How should financers calling it a day change my positon?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It renders the issue moot, Fragony, and suggests that the whole kerflaffle was outed and amped purely for summer "red meat" for right wing political junkies. Somewhere, someone knew this was a nothing but tossed it out there and hoped for the best -- and got it.

[Cute Wolf]

@rhyfelwyr
that's why i have extremely low opinions of wahhabi muslims, as they reject socializing with non muslims, and ridicule everyone who not following syariat law. And these men try to strip every rights from us, the non muslim citizens in the parliment. You allready knew that your average european muslims is wahhabi one, the one who called themself as sunnah wal jammaah. Look at their mysterious fundings, pro syariat demo at britain, coordinated rape at sweden, hijab hysteria at french. Well, we allready undergone such events here, and when you granted them what they want, they will push for more. Not to mention that they use hypnotic and deception for getting new converts.

[Lemur]

How does it change anything if funds were pulled? [...] How should financers calling it a day change my positon?

You would need to have financiers in the first place to have funds pulled. Point of fact, if the Cordoba Initiative had ever had some real money, they would have blueprints, a model, engineering reports, etc., while in fact they have ... nothing.

Let's take it in "baby steps," as you kept saying earlier in the thread. No money means no plans. No money means no blueprints. No money means no PR firm to work the local politicos and stakeholders. No money means no down payment to secure the site. No money means nobody is your friend in Manhattan.

Are we quite clear on this? They don't have money. They never had money, not unless you count $18k and change, which won't secure reliable parking in that neighborhood, much less reserve the entire Burlington Coat Factory building. This entire thing has been an illusion.

[Fragony]

They received at least 1.000.000 from the Dutch goverment, so it's bull.

Is it so easy to get a permit to build a 15 story high building in Manhattan? I have 18.000. They can't account for 100 million dollar and that somehow is a good thing? Weird. I don't think that's a good thing.

[Fragony]

It renders the issue moot, Fragony, and suggests that the whole kerflaffle was outed and amped purely for summer "red meat" for right wing political junkies. Somewhere, someone knew this was a nothing but tossed it out there and hoped for the best -- and got it.

It does? No it really doesn't, where's the money to build a 15 high building. They aren't honest about who's funding it, I wonder why. Well I don't really, but still. Them having only 18andalittle is laughabble at best, I don't think my bank would agree to build a 15 story building if I don't even have any building plan whatsoever. Or even an architect. Neither would my city aprove and Amersfoort is hardly manhattan, but they still will want to know how I can realise a 15 story building before giving a permit. So where's the money.

[al Roumi]

You allready knew that your average european muslims is wahhabi one, the one who called themself as sunnah wal jammaah.

Rubbish. Absolute, steaming, rubbish. Substantiate this claim NOW.

[Fragony]

Rubbish. Absolute, steaming, rubbish. Substantiate this claim NOW.

I am no expert but it means sunni muslim simple as that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam

[rory_20_uk]

NO, it's just wrong. I'd estimate the numbers at easily less than 10%. There would be less of a problem if the 90+% did more to declaim this minority of nutters.

[al Roumi]

I am no expert but it means sunni muslim simple as that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam

Sunni =/= Wahabi/salafist. Your statement is like claiming Christian protestant = baptist.

Salafism (Wahabi is apparently derogatory) is a fundamentalist form of Sunni Islam. Sufism is also Sunni.

Edit:
If you think all muslims are Wahabi/Salafist, its no bloody wonder you think all muslims are nutters. personal "dig" removed