An Occultus Faction possibly worked out?

[anubis88]

I don't actually think that's a real animal. I think it's a mythological.

[stratigos vasilios]

I don't actually think that's a real animal. I think it's a mythological.

I think it's Moros crawling on all fours. I'm guessing it's something he would do?

[Tudhaliya]

I say Moros' sig is a somewhat deformed dromedary on green. I just can't think of any other mammal with such an outline. You may also notice the rabbit-like nose and some kind of a mane on its neck. The head is also too far tilted back for a (weird) lion or smething in that direction.

It could also be two animals. LIke a lion biting a deer. The "hump" would be arch of the lion's neck.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I keep wondering whether that 'hump' isn't an eye.... if it were then it might be of a germanic dragon/serpent like creature atop a carynx-like sculpture that I remember seeing. Course, I could be completely wrong.

Sometimes I can see it, and then I think..nahh. Be damned if I can't remember where I saw that image!!

[Tuuvi]

You're sure?

And Bobbin never had an Occultus sig, like Moros already said.

Mmm not exactly but I think I remember reading that somewhere a while back...

Yea I know I was talking about the Occultus sigs in general since everyone else had already pointed out that Bobbin doesn't have an Occultus sig.

[bobbin]

Just to make clear, I never had an occultus sig, I've had this one since I became a team member.

Also the occultus sigs usually stay the same and don't lighten as a release approaches. Although there were two versions of the Bosporan sig made, which helped me to guess what it was back at the start of this thread (I wasn't part of the team then).

[olly]

I'm sorry but I keep on checking every new post on this thread because I lack the learning/intelligence to figure out what an occultus sig is meant to be and I have come to the conclusion that neither does any one else on this forum.

The team are taking the chronic p*ss and I suggest that everyone just stop guessing and giving them the satisfaction! Leave them a few months and they could drop another clue just to torment everyone once their fun has dried up.

If they weren't making such a cracking mod i'd........ well I'd be jolly annoyed with them.

[XSamatan]

figure out what an occultus sig is meant to be and I have come to the conclusion that neither does any one else on this forum.

well....you could take a look at the signature of Moros, he posted i.e. on the previous page, that.

[Moros]

The image below, that says Occultus, is one:

[bobbin]

He's saying he doesn't know what the occultus sigs are of, not what they are.

[olly]

Yes, sorry. I meant no one will figure out what they are of.

[Brennus]

One of them is the Belgae, that's all I am wishing for!

Is it true that the occultus sigs become increasingly discernable the closer to release date or is this just a paranoid rumour people have developed?

I would suggest you look at the font the word "occultus" is written in and compare it with the existing EBII and EB factions, similarities may reveal the ethnic or geogrpahical location of the factions.

[Arjos]

The sigs remain just as they are, but yes I believe that the writing style is related to the culture...
The green one is definitely celtic (I hope ^^)

[stratigos vasilios]

How many sigs are yet to be revealed? Who has them? I know Moros, Hax and gamegeek2 are sporting the same one.

EDIT: I mean sigs as in sigs, not factions. I figured any new faction that has been discussed internally and confirmed would have an occultus sig made for it but any faction still up in the air wouldn't. Well that's my logic.

[Andy1984]

It seems likely to me that both occultus slots are Baltic/Syracuse.

On the blue occultus sig: I assume we should look towards the Baltic for a second Germanic or a Slavic faction: perhaps the Gutar culture. Belgian tribes have been guessed quite extensively, and it seems most guesses were wrong. Maybe the Belgians will only be represented by units. A Baltic culture is - unlike the Chatti or Belgian tribes - not situated in an overpopulated area. In EB1, there were already several 'Baltic' units, just as there were Belgian units, which suggests this culture would be sufficiently different from the Sueboz and the Sarmatians. Their 'otherness' is also stipulated by Tacitus, both in weaponry and style of fighting as in the Sitones's custom to be ruled by women. This to me makes them a viable playing faction in EB2. I can only hope my reasoning resembles somehow the one of the team. Even more: the blue font of the occultus logo strongly resembles a runic alphabet (i.e. Germanic/Baltic, rather than Belgian, British or even Syracusian). Syracuse would almost certainly have a more 'Greek' font. The blue color of the letters 'europa barbarorum' would suit a trading- or seafaring nation, which fits both North-West Norse and Gutar. The signature looks vague to me, which might fit a misty/forest-background: lakes, flowers, mist and the colourful reflecting of sunlight on green leaves. Between the 'u' and the 'm' of 'barbarorum' you can spot several vertical lines. To me, these look like trees. Around the word 'occultus' there seems to be something in a much brighter spot than the surrounding forest: perhaps lilies on a lake? (Lithuanian culture seems to have had lilies in their mythology) Perhaps some different waterplant? A lake/waterplant seems reasonable as a logo to me, as it could have been the object of a pagan cult. Even a 'lady in the lake' is not entirely impossible if the logo would be that of the Sitones or a comparable tribe. On top of the first 'c' of 'occultus' there seems to be the silhuoette of a moon behind a tree. We're definitly looking for a tribe that feels comfortable in the shades of a forest, that is not scared by water and that might have a lake-, moon-cult or fertility-cult. According to Tacitus, fertility-godess Nerthuz was honoured in a lake. Lithuanian tribes, Gotland, Denmark and South-Norwegian/South-Swedish tribes all fit these. Of these tribes, the Varini, the Cimbri and the Gothones were undoubtly sufficiently agressive to play a significant role in EB, while the Sitones might be the matriarchal faction that would give EB just that final touch.

Tacitus describes several of these Baltic tribes, including Suiones and Sitones. (Granted, some websites equal the Suebi and the Suiones, some don't.) The Rugians and the Lemovians (other Baltic tribes) are given round shields and short swords by Tacitus, while the ships of the Suiones are described as having two prows. At least that's something to accompany the archeological finds. Tacitus mentions the Varini as a small but brave tribe, worshipping Mother Earth (Herthum/Nerthuz), while located within forests and in between rivers. We also have distinctive Danish Lurs, one of them found in Latvia. Ptolemy describes at least the Gutar culture. Strabo describes the Cimbrians and Thule (sometimes equated with Norway/Scandinavia). And last but not least: let's not forget the team has at least one Norwegian and one Danish member. They might just as well be able to deliver the necessary information on such a Baltic tribe. All in all: there seem to be at least some historical and archeological information on these Scandinavian and Baltic tribes to plea for such a faction.


On Moros' occultus sig: Maybe a Celtiberian or Spanish (Cantabri?) tribe, given the strong resemblances with this picture of a stylized bull-cave-painting at Altamira. Even the hind legs and it's tail are visible in the occultus logo. Although much older than the EB-timeframe, it does seem to resemble the contours of the occultus-logo, while bulls continued to play an important role in Celtiberian and Spanish culture (e.g. the stone bull-statues in Guisando).


In the unlikely event I find or come up with anything else, I'll let you know.

kind regards,

Andy

[Brennus]

Great post Andy1984, very interesting views. But correct me if I am wrong hasn't Syracuse already been ruled out and, aside from Tacitus, do we know enough about the Baltic tribes socio-political structures to allow the EBII team to produce a faction? Having artefacts and reconstructing the old Baltic language is enough for units but I doubt there is enough evidence to allow the production of a Baltic faction. Don't get me wrong I think a Baltic faction would be great but I don't think the archaeological evidence alone is enough.

On the topic of the Belgae (or one of the Belgic tribes) not being feasible on account of the "overpopulation" of factions in the Belgic neighbourhood I agree with you to an extent. I was playing as the Aedui today and noticed that the area of Belgica Bellovacae and Belgica Nervica (sorry if spelling is wrong) are not exactly surrounded by Eleutheroi territories. But then again consider that in EBII the number of provinces in Britain and Ireland have been reduced (possibly to expand the Belgic regions in Gaul to represent the region more accurately?). Also the KH, Macedon and Epirus all start off surrounded by competing factions, as does Pontos and the future Pergamanese faction. (Sorry if I seem rude, I am just a die hard advocate for a Belgic faction).

Nice thoughts though!

[WinsingtonIII]

I'm pretty sure that it has already been stated that there simply isn't enough information from this time period on the proto-Balts or Slavs to warrant a faction based off of either them. Tacitus and Ptolemy don't appear until after the EB time frame is over, and Strabo doesn't appear until the end of the EB time frame, so, at best, this information would only be relevant to representing the factions at the extreme end of EB. Before that, all we have is archaeological finds, and I really doubt there is enough information to be gleaned as to make an entire, accurate faction. Considering the team has already stated that the Nabateans will not be included simply because they do not know much of anything on their early military, I doubt a proto-Baltic or proto-Slavic tribe will make the cut, given that there is most likely next to zero information on either of them at game start in 272 BC.

[Andy1984]

@Brennus: thanks

@Winsington: I guessed the sources on the Baltic/Scandinavian area would indeed be scarce at best, non-existant at worst. So I started to search after written texts: little to no findings for the Baltic/Slavic area. If they opted for a Gotlandic, a Swedish or a Baltic faction, written information would be close to non-existant indeed. But. But there seem to be reasons to assume some kind of continuity in the Baltic/Swedish area. Tacitus describes several factions as nomadic hunters: hunting with both men and women and not relying on agriculture at all. If so, we can quite safely assume these people were hunters a few hundred or years earlier as well. When the team selects one of the east-Germanic tribes with a strong reliance on the Nerthuz-cult, they can extrapolate what we know of the Nerthuz-cult, Norse mythology and etymology to such a faction. It is certainly a big jump, but these jumps will have to be made for the Pritannoi as well. The Kaali impact craters (created in 800-400BC) in Saaremaa (an Estonian island) would make a nice 'wonder' for a Baltic/Estonian faction with a distinctive Thaarapita-god. Specifically for the Saaremaa island: it seems to have been a densely populated area during the Bronze Age, whose population relied on cattle rearing, agriculture and seal-hunting. There has been a fortified settlement (Asva), and an abundance of bronze age artefacts. Even better: there is continuous settlement untill 500AD. With a little bit of goodwill, one might identify this same Saaremaa with Thule, and thus 'find' written sources to fill in the lapsi of these archeological findings. Ptolemy seems to have mentioned the Osilians inhabiting this island, but I didn't check yet what kind of information his 'mentioning' gave us. More info on the Saaremaa cataclysm can be found in "Echoes on ancient cataclysms in the Baltic Sea", which draws a link between the Estonian mythology as recorded in the nineteenth-century and the Kaali-craters, and two broader articles on Estonian mythology who cannot be pinned to the EB-timeframe: link and link.

When it comes to archeological findings, there are - luckily - even more dots to connect. Not for the Slaves or the Baltic people (or at least not that I know of), but for a Cimbrian or a Jutland tribe. There is the Trundholm Sun Chart which tells us something on the Nordic/Svedic pantheon (although the Trundholm Sun Chart predates the EB-timeframe by at least seven centuries). There are several famous burials/bog bodies in Jutland and Northern Europe (including Friesland, Northern Germany,...). Several of these tell us something on dress, haircuts (braids), food and human sacrifices. I would be surprised if archeologists didn't recover the clothings of these people. (Granted: even these clothings may not tell us only something on ritual dress, and nothing on battle dress.) We have accounts of the Cimbri invasion (although I didn't check them yet), and there might be other information on the Cimbri at offeringsites like the one at Gundestrup.

At Hjortspring (Jutland) a ritually offered boat (300 to 400 BC) has been excavated, and with it hundreds of spearheads, celtic shields, armours,... Again: these finds won't reflect how the Cimbri or any other Scandinavian tribe armed themselves, but they are a great starting point to compare these findings with ritual findings of tribes we know which arms they used. We also know that minor boats were portrayed quite extensively in Sweden. Although Tacitus describes the presence of Swedish ships at the end of the EB-timeframe, there are petroglyphs of ships from and before the EB-timeframe as well. These ships seem to have been reconstructed as well.


Maybe I'm just too enthousiastic on a Scandinavian/Baltic faction. At first sight, a Cimbri-faction seems possible (to me). A Baltic or more Nordic faction is probably harder and riskier.


kind regards,

Andy

[moonburn]

i like your writting andy1984 but i think all the factions are picked already and by my views either the chatii or the nervii will be in

also the team already discarded the skytians of olbia (but gave us the bosphoran kingdom) and the syracuseans but according to what i read already from the twitter either the basternae or the luiggians are probably going to be included (doesn´t make much sence since they´ll be stuck beteween the boii the sauromatae the getai and if they don´t move fast enough north by the sweaboz) but thats just one of my guesses

also it´s extremly likely that the arevaci from celtiberia will be included and ofc in another aproach probably a new nomadic faction and/or the helvetti or some other alpine or maybe even illyrian faction

confirmed we got :

- numidians
- boii
- bosphorans
-pergamese
(6 missing but from those 6 i think that the celtiberians will be one of those and either the luiggians from nowadays poland or the basternae from nowadays ukraine forests) so 4 to try and guess XD

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I don't think Syracuse was ruled out. Massilia was but I don't recall a team member ruling out Syracuse which really makes me think that they still might make it. I'm thinking arevaci, bastarnae, a belgic tribe, syracuse, caucasian iberia, and either atropatene or another arab tribe.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Anyone notice how all the suggested factions seem to be on the western half of the map...?

[Arjos]

Anyone notice how all the suggested factions seem to be on the western half of the map...?

If it wasn't for the culture slots everybody would say Mauryan empire, Gandhara or Axum XD
BTW I'm all for: Arevaci, Bastarnae, Atropatene, Syracuse or Cyrene, Dalmatae or Scordisci, Belgae tribe or script related faction ^^

[bobbin]

The culture slot problem only really applies to black african factions as it determines FM portraits, so someone like the Mauryans would be fine in that regard (less so in a lot of others though).

[Brennus]

If it wasn't for the culture slots everybody would say Mauryan empire, Gandhara or Axum XD
BTW I'm all for: Arevaci, Bastarnae, Atropatene, Syracuse or Cyrene, Dalmatae or Scordisci, Belgae tribe or script related faction ^^

There seems to be a general concensus of which factions people would like to have included. The next faction preview is gonna land like an atomic bomb.

[Horatius Flaccus]

If we are going to talk about the eastern half of the map: what about the Massagetae? Just throwing out ideas here, it's probably not really a good choice.

And I still think Kartli has a good chance of being included...

[Arjos]

Another one could be the Nabateans, but maybe the'll need some geographical help in the campaign map, otherwise they'll end up being crushed by the AS or the Ptolemaioi...

[Brennus]

One thing I keep coming back to in my mind is (I am sorry for sounding like a borken record) if there were a Belgic faction, which tribe would it be? The Bellovaci and the Nervi were the most powerful of the Belgic tribes but neither of them were particularly expansive. According to Caesar the Suessiones did rule substantial parts of Gaul and Britain during the reign of Diviciacus whilst the archaeological and other historical evidence suggests the Ambiani and Atrebates settled in Britain. However, none of these tribes held a hegemony over all of Belgica in the same way the Averni and Aedui controlled large alliances in Gallia Comata.

[Arjos]

Those you mentioned are the "top 5", the thing is that Gallia Belgica would need at least 3-5 regions XD
Than one of them could be choose ^^

[Cyclops]

...if there were a Belgic faction, which tribe would it be? ...

Well we have the Prytanoi, representing a complex of tribes in Britain, so we may well end up with the Belgae representing a complex of tribes in Belgia-land.

Given the lack of documentation or persistance of tribal names, a more general approach may be the best one. Either way I have a feeling some sort of Belgic faction a lock.

[Brennus]

Well we have the Prytanoi, representing a complex of tribes in Britain, so we may well end up with the Belgae representing a complex of tribes in Belgia-land.

Given the lack of documentation or persistance of tribal names, a more general approach may be the best one. Either way I have a feeling some sort of Belgic faction a lock.

That would certainly be feasible. If the Belgae united to form a confederacy to oppose both Caesar and the Cimbri-Tuetones then who's to say such alliances werne't a common feature of Belgic inter-tribal politics?