Germany to complete WWI reparations at last.

[KrooK]

Hmm - better late than never.

Louis VI - what reparations?

[gaelic cowboy]

probably from the Napoleonic times

[Louis VI the Fat]

Louis VI - what reparations?

Reparations to repair damages of WWI.


For that is what is meant by WWI reparations. WWI was faught on French soil. So all damages were French, not German. Therefore, the fourteen points, the pre-armistice agreements, the armistice - all stated explicitly that Germany was to pay reparations to France for all of the damages incurred.
This was lowered by a magnanimous French delegation in the actual peace treaty (articles 231 and 232): Germany would only be required to pay insofar as Germany could afford to pay. France would pay all of the remainder. France agreed to bear the lion's share of the costs of WWI in this manner to make the peace with Germany, and to ensure anglo, especially US, assistance in the case of renewed German agression.


What little was asked of Germany as reparations was subsequently repeatedly lowered. In the end, Germany has paid total reparations only marginally higher than the value of what the defeated, retreating German troops plundered and destroyed in the last few weeks of the war, as negotiations were nearing completion already.
This tiny amount which Germany actually paid was substantially lower than what Germany was loaned to enable Germany to pay. To top it off, in 1932, Germany publicly stated that it would never repay these loans.


The staggering conclusion is: Germany made a financial profit from WWI reparations.


The pocket change that Germany paid today I estimate is about equal to just the annual cost France and Belgium incur each year in just removing and storing WWI ammunition. This is only getting worse every year, as the ammunition becomes more instable. The job to clean the soil of WWI ammunition is estimated to last for at least another 700 years. That is the optimistic estimate. And that's just the ammunition problem. So I'm happy for Germany that it is finished paying for WWI. France and Belgium, meanwhile, will pay reparations for all eternity.


All of which wouldn't be so bad, if only the persistent myths about Versailles wouldn't reverse all of the above in the public imagination. German propaganda since 1918 has proved so succesful that to this day public opinion and amateur historians repeat a German ultra-nationalist narrative concerning the subject.

[PanzerJaeger]

As ridiculous today as they were in 1919.

[Strike For The South]

As ridiculous today as they were in 1919.

You're right Germany was minding it's own buisness.

And don't give me that tired old powder keg line. I've been exchanging eye ***** with this girl in my bio class but if I was to jump on top of her I would still be arrested.

That analogy makes sense

If you love Germany so much why don't you marry it.

Throw out that saurkruat get with that liberity cabbage.

Etc.

[Brenus]

"As ridiculous today as they were in 1919" Yeap. Not enought, ridiculously low...

[Fragony]

As ridiculous today as they were in 1919.

Agreed.

There is nobody who can point out why it really started in the first place, I'd blame Russia and the Serbs first if there really is to blame anyone, the 'incident' was no accident but a deliberate attempt to lure the axis into an unwinnable war. The highest levels of Serbian and Russian government worked towards it, there can really be no doubt about that when you read the correspondence, the need for an incident is even literally on paper.

Edit, no no German encouragemt Brandy Blue, it was Germany who pressed for the two-week ultimatum. Corresponce of that exists as well. It was a Prussian habit to deliver a strategy every year, the existance of these strategies is really all the guilt-question is based upon.

[gaelic cowboy]

Agreed.

There is nobody who can point out why it really started in the first place, I'd blame Russia and the Serbs first if there really is to blame anyone, the 'incident' was no accident but a deliberate attempt to lure the axis into an unwinnable war. The highest levels of Serbian and Russian government worked towards it, there can really be no doubt about that when you read the correspondence, the need for an incident is even literally on paper.

Edit, no no German encouragemt Brandy Blue, it was Germany who pressed for the two-week ultimatum. Corresponce of that exists as well. It was a Prussian habit to deliver a strategy every year, the existance of these strategies is really all the guilt-question is based upon.

I blame the imperialist societies they all came from 19century morals and thinking but using the massed industrial arms of the 20century a big recipe for disaster.

People educated to read in order work but not to really think about the posters exhorting people to come to the aid of "Poor Little Belgium" etc etc hey wait a minute Ireland is a small country why do I have to fight your war.

The sad thing is it could all happen again cos were still suffering the same structural problems the world faced then.

[Fragony]

I blame the imperialist societies they all came from 19century morals and thinking but using the massed industrial arms of the 20century a big recipe for disaster.

More the transportation I think, the powers were building railroads like crazy, with Russia only slightly behind, making the threat of war much more accute, full deployment being a matter of weeks was mostly new.

[gaelic cowboy]

More the transportation I think, the powers were building railroads like crazy, with Russia only slightly behind, making the threat of war much more accute, full deployment being a matter of weeks was mostly new.

Actually WW1 is a brilliant example of how Globalisation DOES not stop war your point being a good example.

[Brandy Blue]

Agreed.

Edit, no no German encouragemt Brandy Blue, it was Germany who pressed for the two-week ultimatum. Corresponce of that exists as well. It was a Prussian habit to deliver a strategy every year, the existance of these strategies is really all the guilt-question is based upon.

Thanks for the information. Its always good to learn. I still think it makes no sense to say that Germany did nothing but honor its treaty obligations. That does not mean I am saying they were "guilty," just that they cannot be justified by that particular argument.

Does the correspondance you refer to mean that there was no "blank check?" I would have thought that it would count as encouraging the Austrians to go to war by promising support.

[PanzerJaeger]

Does the correspondance you refer to mean that there was no "blank check?" I would have thought that it would count as encouraging the Austrians to go to war by promising support.

Wilhelm's 'blank check' was given for limited penal action against Serbia and specifically the 'Black Hand' terrorist group that killed his friend, Franz Ferdinand. Hawks in the Austrian court manipulated it's intent to gain the support of the old emporor, Franz Joseph I, for the full destruction of Serbia.

@Louis - I hardly think the fact that Germany was able to keep the majority of fighting away from it's frontiers is justification for reparations. France was very eager for war itself, esprit de revanche and all.

[Brandy Blue]

Thank you for explaining that, Panzer. The "check" wasn't really blank, then.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Reparations to repair damages of WWI.

~snip

Kind of the risk you take when forming entangling alliances on the Continent.

[PanzerJaeger]

A bit of history.

Wilhelm was a friend of Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria-Este, and he was deeply shocked by his assassination on 28 June 1914. Wilhelm offered to support Austria-Hungary in crushing the Black Hand, the secret organization that had plotted the killing, and even sanctioned the use of force by Austria against the perceived source of the movement—Serbia (this is often called "the blank cheque"). He wanted to remain in Berlin until the crisis was resolved, but his courtiers persuaded him instead to go on his annual cruise of the North Sea on 6 July 1914. It was perhaps realized that Wilhelm's presence would be more of a hindrance to those elements in the government who wished to use the crisis to increase German prestige, even at the risk of general war—something of which Wilhelm, for all his bluster, was extremely apprehensive.

Wilhelm made erratic attempts to stay on top of the crisis via telegram, and when the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum was delivered to Serbia, he hurried back to Berlin. He reached Berlin on 28 July, read a copy of the Serbian reply, and wrote on it:

A brilliant solution—and in barely 48 hours! This is more than could have been expected. A great moral victory for Vienna; but with it every pretext for war falls to the ground, and [the Ambassador] Giesl had better have stayed quietly at Belgrade. On this document, I should never have given orders for mobilization.

Unknown to the Emperor, Austro-Hungarian ministers and generals had already convinced the 84-year-old Francis Joseph I of Austria to sign a declaration of war against Serbia. As a direct consequence, Russia began a general mobilization to attack Austria in defense of Serbia.

On the night of 30 July, when handed a document stating that Russia would not cancel its mobilization, Wilhelm wrote a lengthy commentary containing the startling observations:

"For I no longer have any doubt that England, Russia and France have agreed among themselves—knowing that our treaty obligations compel us to support Austria—to use the Austro-Serb conflict as a pretext for waging a war of annihilation against us ... Our dilemma over keeping faith with the old and honorable Emperor has been exploited to create a situation which gives England the excuse she has been seeking to annihilate us with a spurious appearance of justice on the pretext that she is helping France and maintaining the well-known Balance of Power in Europe, i.e. playing off all European States for her own benefit against us."

When it became clear that the United Kingdom would enter the war if Germany attacked France through neutral Belgium, the panic-stricken Wilhelm attempted to redirect the main attack against Russia. When Helmuth von Moltke (the younger) told him that this was impossible, Wilhelm said: "Your uncle would have given me a different answer!" Wilhelm is also reported to have said: "To think that George and Nicky should have played me false! If my grandmother had been alive, she would never have allowed it."

It is difficult to argue that Wilhelm actively sought to unleash the First World War. Though he had ambitions for the German Empire to be a world power, it was never Wilhelm's intention to conjure a large-scale conflict to achieve such ends. As soon as his better judgment dictated that a world war was imminent, he made strenuous efforts to preserve the peace—such as The Willy-Nicky Correspondence mentioned earlier, and his optimistic interpretation of the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum that Austro-Hungarian troops should go no further than Belgrade, thus limiting the conflict. But by then it was far too late, for the eager military officials of Germany and the German Foreign Office were successful in persuading him to sign the mobilisation order and initiate the Schlieffen Plan that envisioned the occupation of Paris within 40 days. The contemporary British reference to the First World War as "the Kaiser's War" in the same way that the Second was "Hitler's War" is not wholly accurate in its suggestion that Wilhelm was deliberately responsible for unleashing the conflict. "He may not have been 'the father of war' but he was certainly its godfather' (A. Woodcock-Clarke). According to the book, All Quiet on the Western Front, Remarque talks about the Kaiser's visit to the western front and how unimpressed he was by his height and speech.

His own love of the culture and trappings of militarism and push to endorse the German military establishment and industry (most notably the Krupp corporation), which were the key support which enabled his dynasty to rule helped push his empire into an armaments race with competing European powers. Similarly, though on signing the mobilisation order, Wilhelm is reported as having said, "You will regret this, gentlemen." He had encouraged Austria to pursue a hard line with Serbia, was an enthusiastic supporter of the subsequent German actions during the war, and reveled in the title of "Supreme War Lord" and "Allerhöchste" (All-highest).

Austria was at fault for turning a terrorist assasination into a pretext for war with Serbia and Russia was at fault for bringing the major powers into the war. Germany and the others were just adhering to their poorly thought out alliance obligations.

[Louis VI the Fat]

AtpG, PJ - the issue is not about war guilt. Or who started it. Or to what extent each party is to blame.


The issue is this:
AtpG and Louis fight with PJ. The entire fight takes place in the house of Louis. In fact, his hallway and part of his living room get completely trashed. Louis and AtpG however manage to subdue PJ and forcefully throw him out. As PJ is thrown out, PJ begs for peace while simultaneously stealing whatever he can put in his pockets and trashing everything else.
At 11:11 PM peace is made as PJ promises to pay Louis for all of the damages to Louis' house.

What would be a fair peace? Louis on his own to pay for all of the reparations to Louis' house? PJ to keep everything he stole? Surely that is preposterous. For one, the peace would then reverse the verdict of the war.


What else then?
Standard procedure is that the winner gets fully compensated by the loser. In this case, PJ's defeat was accepted on the condition that PJ returns everything he nicked and pays full reparation costs for everything that gor destroyed.
Angels, for their part, might make a peace whereby PJ promises to return what he stole, and then agree a financial agreement between all parties to share the reparation costs.

Louis however, being more magnanimous than angels still, offers to pay for the vast majority of the reparations and agrees that PJ can even substract from his share of the reparations any loot PJ cares to return. To seal the deal, noble AtpG even lends PJ more money than PJ will ever need to compensate Louis. This all must surely rank as the most idealistic, noble and magnanimous concilliation effort in living memory.

(Alas, however. As it turns out PJ was never interested in concilliation. For immediately upon his loss, PJ started meticulous, planned preparations for another attack on Louis and AtpG, never losing sight of this one goal.)

[Brandy Blue]

Austria was at fault for turning a terrorist assasination into a pretext for war with Serbia and Russia was at fault for bringing the major powers into the war. Germany and the others were just adhering to their poorly thought out alliance obligations.

For the record, Russia was not responsible for involving the major powers. Russia was allied to Serbia, so the Austrians started involving major powers by attacking Serbia, with German encouragement. Germany completed the process by declaring war on Russia and France, and provoking war with Brittan. Germany cannot be excused on the grounds of the Triple Alliance because it only required Germany to help Austria if Austria was attacked by two major powers. That had not happened. Russia can be excused on the same grounds that you would excuse Germany because all Russia did was mobilize its forces to support its ally.

OK, there are some things to be said in Austria and Germany’s defense. However, it is simply not accurate to blame the Russians for what Austria and Germany did between them.

[Megas Methuselah]

[gaelic cowboy]

[Brenus]

“Austria was at fault for turning a terrorist assassination into a pretext for war with Serbia and Russia was at fault for bringing the major powers into the war.”
So, Russia should have let Austria to invade Serbia, no further than Belgrade, the Serbian Capital, so the Serbs humiliation was just a little price to pay for the comfort of the poor Austro-Hungarian Empire that was just occupying Bosnia?