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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    They can now choose whether to have holidays every year and a new car every 3 or have a handicapped child an a trip to the caravan park and a second hand car every 10 years.
    It's a choice nobody asks for and it's unfair to take measures that (look at it how you want) punish those parents who have the bad luck of being confronted with that choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
    "How can you put a price on love?" - Let's see people make this choice. Currently others subsidise them, this method they take the responsibility.
    The state paying for most of the care of the child doesn't mean you're not taking responsibility. Parents of a crippled, blind or deaf child will still raise it and take care of it on a day to day basis. The extra costs of healthcare because of the disability being paid by society doesn't mean you can't be a responsible parent. You'll still have to take care of the child AND do the extra paper work and take all the extra problems that come with being the parent of a handicapped child. Being a parent of a healthy child is already a big task; can't even imagine how hard it is to be the parent of a handicapped child. Why shouldn't society help people who have a handicapped child? What else do we pay taxes for? Things like this should be priority. We need to cut in expenses, but please, let's not cut in the expenses of taking care of the disabled.

    Also, some would argue that it is irresponsible and selfish to abort a child because it's not the perfectly healthy child you wished for.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_uk_20
    No one is being condemned - you merely choose one disabled child or two healthy children (this ratio might be even high for severe handicapped children).

    Nobody chooses to have a disabled child. It's just bad luck. The fact that somebody can't make the decision of aborting their own child, doesn't mean they have chosen to have a disabled child. Nobody choses that. The choice is not to have or have not a disabled child but to abort or don't abort. And nobody can make that decision for the parents. Nobody has the right to impose or stimulate the parents to take decision A or B. Just like abortion should not be forbidden, people who don't chose an abortion shouldn't be punished for making that choice. It's good that abortion is allowed, but punishing people because they have chosen not to abort is a step too far, imo.
    Last edited by Andres; 10-21-2010 at 13:36.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Much of life we are faced by choices we'd not like to have in an ideal world. That's tough. Complaints can be registered with your nearest priest.

    The state spending money on a handicapped child is depriving the aid to others. Others will die who would have lived.

    Others will argue that it is irrisponsible. That is of course their right to do so. If they want to set up a charity to help provide that's fine.

    If they chose not to have an abortion of course they chose to have the child! Merely that this is not a choice they wished to face changes nothing. If you're religious take it up with a priest. Personally I think it's a cruel universe and merely squealing that it's not fair changes nothing.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Much of life we are faced by choices we'd not like to have in an ideal world. That's tough. Complaints can be registered with your nearest priest.

    The state spending money on a handicapped child is depriving the aid to others. Others will die who would have lived.

    Others will argue that it is irrisponsible. That is of course their right to do so. If they want to set up a charity to help provide that's fine.

    If they chose not to have an abortion of course they chose to have the child! Merely that this is not a choice they wished to face changes nothing. If you're religious take it up with a priest. Personally I think it's a cruel universe and merely squealing that it's not fair changes nothing.

    the same can be said the other way around. thats just bad luck for those who died their complaints can be registered with the nearest priests, they died because money was spent on an infant who would otherwise have died.

    hehe though it comes scarily close to my own ideas on healthcare for the elderly XD or animals... its a miracle, i actually come close to agreeing with rory!!!

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If they chose not to have an abortion of course they chose to have the child! Merely that this is not a choice they wished to face changes nothing. If you're religious take it up with a priest. Personally I think it's a cruel universe and merely squealing that it's not fair changes nothing.

    that is not an argument. just because something is doenst mean it ought to be. the fact that the state of the world is a cruel one doesnt mean that it ought to be or that it can't change or that you must go along with it. defaitism...

    just because a person is sick doesnt mean he ought to be or that you must do nothing to change it...

    also i want to stress the point that actually we need to pose 2 different questions.

    1) should people have the choice to know and if they do know should they get the choice to abort (and on which terms are they allowed to do so?)

    2) when a handicapped child is born, REGARDLESS of whether or not the parents knew about it before it was born, who should pay for the cost.
    Last edited by The Stranger; 10-21-2010 at 13:45.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Everyone should pay the costs, a disabled person is a burden of course but not everything is a matter of money. What are you really asking from these people, it's forcing them to kill what they want to take care for. Healthcare is incredibly expensive a night in the hospital can run into thousands, it's not a choice at all.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-21-2010 at 14:00. Reason: @TS point 2

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Money is the current best abstract means to allocate resources and balance wants / needs. How else can you compare 5 minutes of time to a beefburger. Everything is always about the money - but how it is allocated can vary.

    To say it's not about the money is as meaningless as saying "I'm not a statistic"

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Devout worshipper of Bilious Member miotas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    But it's not about the money. It's about people.

    - Four Horsemen of the Presence

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Ever heard of economics? Popular subject. Might be best to get a primer and have a quick glance. You might learn something.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Money is the current best abstract means to allocate resources and balance wants / needs. How else can you compare 5 minutes of time to a beefburger. Everything is always about the money - but how it is allocated can vary.

    To say it's not about the money is as meaningless as saying "I'm not a statistic"

    All business is about money, but not everything is business. We have a healthcare system for everybody and everybody pays it, the idea of insurance is sharing the risk, so in money terms people should get what they payed for, the best care for their disabled child.

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Of course, there's no net gain in economic terms. So what?
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Much of life we are faced by choices we'd not like to have in an ideal world. That's tough. Complaints can be registered with your nearest priest.

    The state spending money on a handicapped child is depriving the aid to others. Others will die who would have lived.

    Others will argue that it is irrisponsible. That is of course their right to do so. If they want to set up a charity to help provide that's fine.

    If they chose not to have an abortion of course they chose to have the child! Merely that this is not a choice they wished to face changes nothing. If you're religious take it up with a priest. Personally I think it's a cruel universe and merely squealing that it's not fair changes nothing.

    I'm not exactly religious, rory.

    The state has money. Our tax money. How they spend it, is a matter of priorities. Cut in something else, not in this.

    And I still disagree that having a disabled child is a choice. It isn't. Maybe you are able to say "Oh, Down syndrom. What a pity, abort and better luck next time", a position I would respect and I would fight for your right to have the abortion. Maybe you have a high paying job and you could easily afford taking care of a disabled child. Other people can't make that choice or don't have a high paying job (some people work hard and do not earn massive amounts of money) which makes it doable to pay for a disabled child. I don't think I would be able to chose the abortion (and I'm far from religious, in case you think only religious people would chose not to have an abortion). Has nothing to do with responsibility.

    I would keep the child, even if society would say "bad luck, but it's your own fault!" and show me the middlefinger. I would of course kindly show my middlefinger back to such a kind of society.
    Last edited by Andres; 10-21-2010 at 13:55.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    How is this different to the rich getting a greater diversity of treatments than others with greater success rates? Or the rich can afford a great sports car which will protect them from high speed crashes far more than the poor sods they might hit? Or being stuck with a CPS lawyer and not a QC? Of course money affects what realistic options one has. Or one can "pay" with time.

    The money that a severely handicapped child requires is multiples of my salary, or my wife could stay at home the whole time and we could not have any other children. We could move back to be close to my parents and they could help too. That is a choice I would not make.

    Adoption is still an option that avoids abortion and upkeep.

    There are many things I would wish for the state to spend money on rather that lost causes such as this.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    There are many things I would wish for the state to spend money on rather that lost causes such as this.

    Jesus, to be this cold you'd have to be a doctor.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    Jesus, to be this cold you'd have to be a doctor.
    He's also somewhat undermining his own job now that I think about it.


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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Severly handicapped..... Abort, God forgive me for saying that.


    If only miniorly handicapped, no.

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiKingWarmanCake88 View Post
    Severly handicapped..... Abort, God forgive me for saying that.


    If only miniorly handicapped, no.
    but there is the problem of definition. when is someone severely handicapped and when is someone only minor handicapped? ofcourse the extreme cases (completely disabled and mentally retarded vs missing a leg or being blind) are easy, but what about the bordercases? what about a person who can barely move on his own but is extremely intelligent and capable of producing the most astonishing art? and that leads to another question, why should the life of an intelligent handicapped person be valued higher than that of an unintelligent one. To whose interests do we look first in such a case. my intuitions would be that of the child, but apparantly the vvd think tank disagrees and thinks we should look at the interest of the state first.

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    Retired Senior Member Prince Cobra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Wow, I would usually just read and say nothing but it is quite a cynic statement. Handicapped people also have the right of helfcare, right to contribute to the society and etc. Their parents should not be punished for the fact they decided to give them a chance to live. It's a matter of choice, not a matter to save money. You won't save enough from that, btw!
    Last edited by Prince Cobra; 10-21-2010 at 21:50.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    i may have used the term punishment wrongly, this because they came with the term guilty, and therefor punishment is the association i make. but perhaps it should more be viewed as changing the entire nature of society, instead of the group taking care of all its members, everyone will take care only of themself. the parents of handicapped children are not really punished they are merely not treated any different then parents who have a normal child. both will have to pay for the descision that they wanted a child. however this will mean that the entire dutch society needs to be changed, because then why should i pay taxes to let someone else kid go to school, for medical treatment etc etc.

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  19. #19
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Killing unborn children due to a handicap, resembling some of the very arguements of Nazi belief systems and morality.... make me horny...
    RIP Tosa

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    How is this different to the rich getting a greater diversity of treatments than others with greater success rates? Or the rich can afford a great sports car which will protect them from high speed crashes far more than the poor sods they might hit? Or being stuck with a CPS lawyer and not a QC? Of course money affects what realistic options one has. Or one can "pay" with time.

    The money that a severely handicapped child requires is multiples of my salary, or my wife could stay at home the whole time and we could not have any other children. We could move back to be close to my parents and they could help too. That is a choice I would not make.

    Adoption is still an option that avoids abortion and upkeep.

    There are many things I would wish for the state to spend money on rather that lost causes such as this.

    why is a disabled kid a lost cause? lets say richard dawkins (dont know his name for sure, but the dude that sits in a wheelchair and talks with the help of a computer) he is a severely handicapped person, but certainly not a lost cause. he has made some very important contributions to modern science and through that our culture.

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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    why is a disabled kid a lost cause? lets say richard dawkins (dont know his name for sure, but the dude that sits in a wheelchair and talks with the help of a computer) he is a severely handicapped person, but certainly not a lost cause. he has made some very important contributions to modern science and through that our culture.
    Stephen Hawking.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Stephen Hawking.
    i always mix them up :P

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    Jesus, to be this cold you'd have to be a doctor.
    Being close to the reality of situations might help gain perspective in what is a zero sum game.

    There will always be the ill. Reallocating would not reduce the number of doctors that could have gainful employment. Besides, I'm a Consultant Pharmaceutical Physician - I'm in drug development.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    why is a disabled kid a lost cause? lets say richard dawkins (dont know his name for sure, but the dude that sits in a wheelchair and talks with the help of a computer) he is a severely handicapped person, but certainly not a lost cause. he has made some very important contributions to modern science and through that our culture.
    ...and if Stalin / Hitler / Mao were found to be irreparably damaged as babies imagine the lives that would have been saved. A sample size of one isn't a valid sample size.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Being close to the reality of situations might help gain perspective in what is a zero sum game.

    There will always be the ill. Reallocating would not reduce the number of doctors that could have gainful employment. Besides, I'm a Consultant Pharmaceutical Physician - I'm in drug development.



    ...and if Stalin / Hitler / Mao were found to be irreparably damaged as babies imagine the lives that would have been saved. A sample size of one isn't a valid sample size.

    that is a different point all together. why is a person who is physically handicapped a lost cause?

    btw since when do you care about saving lives? i thought the world was a cruel place XD
    Last edited by The Stranger; 10-21-2010 at 21:54.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    I'm with Andres, isn't being totally devoid of compassion a bit of a handicap anyway, the human calculator. I can understand the reasoning behind it, just as I can understand the reasoning behind the euganics-program that the Swedish used to run, sterilising people deemed unfit for reproduction. But such thinking disgusts. A disabled kid can cost tons a year, this is a non-decision. I'll happily take my part of the burden.

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Handicapped Children: Keep or Abort?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    It's a choice nobody asks for and it's unfair to take measures that (look at it how you want) punish those parents who have the bad luck of being confronted with that choice.



    The state paying for most of the care of the child doesn't mean you're not taking responsibility. Parents of a crippled, blind or deaf child will still raise it and take care of it on a day to day basis. The extra costs of healthcare because of the disability being paid by society doesn't mean you can't be a responsible parent. You'll still have to take care of the child AND do the extra paper work and take all the extra problems that come with being the parent of a handicapped child. Being a parent of a healthy child is already a big task; can't even imagine how hard it is to be the parent of a handicapped child.

    Also, some would argue that it is irresponsible and selfish to abort a child because it's not the perfectly healthy child you wished for.



    Nobody chooses to have a disabled child. It's just bad luck. The fact that somebody can't make the decision of aborting their own child, doesn't mean they have chosen to have a disabled child. Nobody choses that. The choice is not to have or have not a disabled child but to abort or don't abort. And nobody can make that decision for the parents. Nobody has the right to impose or stimulate the parents to take decision A or B. Just like abortion should not be forbidden, people who don't chose an abortion shouldn't be punished for making that choice. It's good that abortion is allowed, but punishing people because they have chosen not to abort is a step too far, imo.

    lets be realistic, its not yet a common choice. and it is not at all a natural choise to keep it in line with rory's idea of darwinism within modern society (which i agree with till a certain extent) but for severely handicapped children there are certain payments that are required for equipment or operation that no modal family can affor without insurance or goverment funding. however when the goverment retreats and says we will have nothing to do with this then the responsibility will fall solely to the family because i dont see why the insurance companies will not follow the same line of reasoning of the government and say, well youve chosen for this child (as if it is possible to chose a particular child and not another) so you must pay for the consequences.

    We do not sow.

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