Star Wars: Fall of the Order [Concluded]

[Nightbringer]

I do not know what I can do to prove my innocence. I told you I am Jedi Master An-Wan Dyas, and extremely important to the town. The Sith wouldn't have targeted me last night because they want to use my as lynch-bait. For crying out loud - I had a blue light sabre and lost an attack against me two nights ago. I do not have Force Breath anymore - you've exhausted that, so you will finally get rid of me this time if you want.

Just could someone please list your main suspicions against me, and I'll answer them. If the sole reason you suspect me is because I'm participating then that's pretty low.

As far as i can tell thats all people have based this on, plus some posts that can be read as scummy. But then again, just about everyone has posted some posts like that.

[wideyedwanderer]

Vote: Joooray. His story isn't adding up to me. Kills Innocent players, saying "I was sure he was Sith..." Sort of reminds me of his behavior in Zack's Star Wars: A Regurgitated Hope on TWC.

[Greyblades]

Hmph, Jooray's either a vigilante killer but has failed to kill sith or a sith himself and is posing as one, seems kinda like either way lynching him would lower the nightly kill count from three to two. I dont know, should we risk killing a vigilante for that?

[dcmort93]

Nice to see you back wideyed

Hmph, Jooray's either a vigilante killer but has failed to kill sith or a sith himself and is posing as one, seems kinda like either way lynching him would lower the nightly kill count from three to two. I dont know, should we risk killing a vigilante for that?

As for this I'd be for it is I wasn't dead...cough cough Joooray cough cough...
Now I'm definitely for it

[Joooray]

Looking at the write-up...

Joooray has killed at least two innocents now, and has even tried to get his victims to become apprentices. Even if he started out town, he has definitely fallen to the Dark Side by now (he even mentions it in the write-ups). He doesn't have to be a Sith to be Dark Side; rather he is probably some kind of unaffiliated dark Jedi now.

The write-up practically slams it in our faces, but nobody is voting for him. Why?

As I said before, I used Force Persuasion on Stuck in Pi while attacking him and the conversation can be attributed to that. It's an investigation power that finds out if someone is susceptible to or/and already part of the Dark Side, thus me trying to probe what was Stuck in Pi's standing to the Dark Side.
For completeness sake: The results were "Not susceptible to the Dark Side, and you don't sense the Dark Side already present in this one.", which is what I got on most investigations.

Then why not kill someone who's actually likely to be Sith, like Iggy or Chaotix?

As I said, I didn't want to make the decision whether to trust Iggy's claim or not on my own. I already attacked dcmort after he survived the lynch and there I had a lot more to warrant it (general suspicions voiced by a number of people and my investigation results) and look where it got me. Stuck in Pi didn't seem like he would be of much use for the town in the future, so I choose to kill him in order to give me an alibi.
Selfish? Yes. Bad move? Maybe. But I know I can be of much more use to the town than Stuck in Pi could have been for quite a while.

I personally find the guy who kills innocents at night to prove his own innocence scummier. Self-preservation in mafia games is not necessarily a scumtell, but killing other townies to save your own skin, is a bit over the top, don't you think? Even if he's not Sith, what difference is there with a Sith killing townies and a crazy Jedi Master killing townies?

I can only repeat myself, I was hoping this move would help me make my case today if I wouldn't be attacked by the Sith.
And again, I will refrain from killing from now on.

Second, there aren't any other night kills that match what we know for sure about Jooray exactly. From the last two nights we know that Jooray has a blue lightsaber, knows Form 3, and can use Force Push/Wave and Force Lightning. Though only other kills that have any of the same traits are the following:

All I can say is that I only got the vig-kill ability the night I first investigated dcmort. And as pizza said, my lightsaber colour does not prove anything. Iggy still trying to defend himself with that fact, actually irks me.

While we are at it. I find it sad that the whole controversy about me, trumps a discussion about last nights write-up, the fact that only lurker were killed and all by people with lightsaber of not red colour in my mind means that either the Sith have found a way to effectively disguise their attacks and want to appear townie or we have more than just me and the purple-saber-man vig-killing last night.

Vote: Joooray. His story isn't adding up to me. Kills Innocent players, saying "I was sure he was Sith..." Sort of reminds me of his behavior in Zack's Star Wars: A Regurgitated Hope on TWC.

It's not even close to anything I did there. I didn't actually kill anyone in that game, because I only got to use my weapon once and was blocked by Rebel Jeb thus shooting him down. Not once did I claim afterwards that I thought Rebel Jeb was mafia.
You saying that is actually quite interesting as it makes me feel like you were trying very hard to come up with something to write.

Should I be lynched and thus cleared of being Sith, I strongly recommend the town to keep this post in mind!

Finally @dcmort: I'm very sorry to have killed you, you have every right to be mad at me. But as I said, this wasn't so much a sole decision by me, but you were considered to be suspicious by quite some people. And with the results I got on you, I was sure it was a safe bet.

[Frozen In Ice]

That depends on your definition of "clue".

Red lightsabers are tells that show a Sith, that's not ambiguous. I don't really think that's a clue though, if someone kills someone with a red lightsaber, that's not a hint, that's a fact.

Other colors for lightsabers don't prove that someone is or is not a Sith.

Speech patterns don't prove someone is a Sith either, unless they're being very open about it.

There's a lot of ambiguity in this game. Other than the red lightsaber thing, almost nothing you see is exclusively Sith.

Wait I was under the impression that you said that lightsaber color, even red, had no bearing on who their user was. Did I imagine that?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Wait I was under the impression that you said that lightsaber color, even red, had no bearing on who their user was. Did I imagine that?

I said that lightsaber color, other than red, has no bearing on what their user is. Yes, you're misremembering.

Jedi generally do not use red sabers, canonically. Here in this game it's dogma you can memorize: Red means Sith.

[Choxorn]

Well, then why not at least scan Iggy or Chaotix or someone? It doesn't help anyone to know that a dead Jedi is a Jedi.

[dcmort93]

Well, then why not at least scan Iggy or Chaotix or someone? It doesn't help anyone to know that a dead Jedi is a Jedi.

Indeed I fail to see how scanning the person you are tying to kill is wasting the ability. If you can only perform 2 actions on 1 person as I seem to recall you saying then there is absolutely no point in scanning at all. If however you can scan someone else then by all means do so

[Joooray]

Well, then why not at least scan Iggy or Chaotix or someone? It doesn't help anyone to know that a dead Jedi is a Jedi.

Indeed I fail to see how scanning the person you are tying to kill is wasting the ability. If you can only perform 2 actions on 1 person as I seem to recall you saying then there is absolutely no point in scanning at all. If however you can scan someone else then by all means do so

Do you two mean me? If so:
I can only use two abilities on one person and my goal for last night was to appear in the write-up and so I decided against investigating Iggy.

Of course I'm not compelled to attack the person I investigate (imaging a game like that ) and I will use a different combination in the following nights, should I live.

[dcmort93]

Do you two mean me? If so:
I can only use two abilities on one person and my goal for last night was to appear in the write-up and so I decided against investigating Iggy.

Of course I'm not compelled to attack the person I investigate (imaging a game like that ) and I will use a different combination in the following nights, should I live.

Yes I was reffering to you, and I think you should have held of on killing an inactive and just scanned iggy with out attacking him instead. This I'm sure would have gotten you in the writeup and could have scored you brownie points if he turned up as guilty

[Joooray]

Yes I was reffering to you, and I think you should have held of on killing an inactive and just scanned iggy with out attacking him instead. This I'm sure would have gotten you in the writeup and could have scored you brownie points if he turned up as guilty

Investigations don't appear in the write-up unfortunately, so that wasn't an option to achieve what I attempted.

BTW: Can someone tell me how to get rid of a Multi-Quote without deselecting every single post?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

unvote, vote:Joooray

Change of heart.

[Rebel Jeb]

Since I've been dead I haven't paid much attention, but you guys really should lynch Diana in the near future...Just saying...

[dcmort93]

Since I've been dead I haven't paid much attention, but you guys really should lynch Diana in the near future...Just saying...

And why would this be

On a somewhat related note:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Please come the TWC and join in Skooma Addict's Cherry Blossoms In Winter game over there, he'd appreciate it and we'd love to have you there!!
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=402621

[Renata]

While we are at it. I find it sad that the whole controversy about me, trumps a discussion about last nights write-up, the fact that only lurker were killed and all by people with lightsaber of not red colour in my mind means that either the Sith have found a way to effectively disguise their attacks and want to appear townie or we have more than just me and the purple-saber-man vig-killing last night.

This is worth highlighting. At least one kill last night was either a Sith hiding the fact, a third party of some variety, or a non-reporting town vig.

[Renata]

I do not know what I can do to prove my innocence. I told you I am Jedi Master An-Wan Dyas, and extremely important to the town. The Sith wouldn't have targeted me last night because they want to use my as lynch-bait. For crying out loud - I had a blue light sabre and lost an attack against me two nights ago. I do not have Force Breath anymore - you've exhausted that, so you will finally get rid of me this time if you want.

Just could someone please list your main suspicions against me, and I'll answer them. If the sole reason you suspect me is because I'm participating then that's pretty low.

I've done so, and that wasn't the only reason.

Despite that, the level of frustration here is fairly convincing. ... I don't know.

[wideyedwanderer]

Joooray, let me get this straight. You are a vig, but your scan results are misleading? Something doesn't seem right.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yeah, I thought so.

[Nightbringer]

Vote: Joooray. His story isn't adding up to me. Kills Innocent players, saying "I was sure he was Sith..." Sort of reminds me of his behavior in Zack's Star Wars: A Regurgitated Hope on TWC.

Joooray, let me get this straight. You are a vig, but your scan results are misleading? Something doesn't seem right.

Ok, now I'm sure you are scum. These are your fourth and fifth posts in the entire game, your most substantial posts, and they came 40 minutes and then 6 hours after i voted you for lurking.

Does this strike anyone else as highly suspicious.
He appears to be well aware of what is going on, despite no previous posts in a while.
He only posts now that he has been called out for it.
He posts almost immediately after being called out for it, further showing how much he is watching the game.
Finally, he is just jumping on the now easy Jooray bandwagon and making some vague noncommittal accusations.

I know I don't have proof, and likely don't have time to push this through today, but please please remember this guy tomorrow.
And please scan this guy and send pever your results tonight.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If any Sith try to kill me, I will use Force expecto patronum on him/her and blast him back. Idk why no one has asked for my opinion since I am a jedi Master with detective skills. Also if anyone tries to Force Breath me just last night I learned Force Falcon Punch

[a completely inoffensive name]

Change of heart.

What kind? Baboon?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Sorry, carry on.

[Joooray]

Joooray, let me get this straight. You are a vig, but your scan results are misleading? Something doesn't seem right.

I'm not entirely sure what you aim at, but as I said, I only got my vig ability after scanning dcmort for the first time. The results I got from pizza on dcmort made me think he was Sith, they were: "Susceptible to the Dark Side, and you sense that the Dark Side is already present in this one." And as I also said before, I got carried away at that point, partly due to the circumstances in the game, partly because I didn't think far enough. Only after I investigated dcmort a second time while attacking him the night after he survived the lynch did pizza give me some hints on how to interpret my results, they were:
You are beginning to realize that susceptible to the Dark Side means that they are not Sith yet.
When someone is not susceptible to the Dark Side, but the Dark Side is present, they are either Sith or highly resistant to the Dark Side.

So, yes my investigation results were misleading, but I wasn't aware of that, when I vig-killed dcmort.

[Captain Blackadder]

vote:wideyedwanderer

I have being watching you for a while and I think that you are trying very hard to melt into the background. Not doing anything controversial.

[Andres]

Random thoughts:

It has been mentioned that killing brings a Jedi closer to the Dark Side. In Capo games, killing as a townie gets you promoted to Wiseguy and further. Would it be possible that there exists a mechanic which turns a Jedi Master who uses his vig ability a set number of times to the Dark Side? In short: a Jedi Master who kills enough becomes Sith? We had a vigilante killing on N1. That same person killed again (same target). Why the N1 kill? Was the Dark Side too tempting? About Joooray, I can accept that Joooray killed dcmort, given his investigation results; I don't see any good reason for killing Stuck in Pi. "To make sure I appear in the write-up, so you guys know I'm innocent" doesn't cut it for me, as an explanation. Killing Jedi is not what a Jedi Master is supposed to do. This is all speculation and hypothesis, but I think either Joooray is Sith or he's trying to become one. We all know how tempting the Dark Side can be...

[Renata]

Is there anything that actually says that vig killing can turn a player to Sith? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times now, but as far as I can tell it is just speculation based on the previous game, in which it was heavily implied --- but not the case. I like vigs too much; I don't want it to be true.

Nightbringer is absolutely right about wideyedwanderer. When does this day end?

Captain Blackadder's vote on WEW is also suspicious -- how can you "keep an eye on" someone who's only had five posts the whole game? That vote rationale is suspect.

[Andres]

Is there anything that actually says that vig killing can turn a player to Sith? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times now, but as far as I can tell it is just speculation based on the previous game, in which it was heavily implied --- but not the case. I like vigs too much; I don't want it to be true.

I said it was all speculation and hypothesis, but it would make sense.

On the other hand, what doesn't make sense at all is a pro-town role killing innocent Jedi at night to prove his innocence.

[TinCow]

I think we're at a point where some discussion of the game mechanics is warranted. In the previous game, the only real chance the Jedi had of winning was keeping powerful Jedi alive for most of the game so that they were strong enough to stand up to the Sith in the end. In essence, the only players that truly mattered were power roles. I know ATPG has modified the game goals to make it less rigged than the last game, but I never got any game mechanic info beyond a Jedi Initiate role PM which never changed or improved. So, I am currently unsure of how cautious we need to be about lynching potential power roles. My instinct is to say that in mafia games, the townies need to rely first and foremost on good town play, and not wait to be rescued by power roles. Such an instinct makes me perfectly happy to watch Ignoramus and Joooray get lynched. However, if the game is still a lot like the first game, playing such a scorched earth policy towards potential scum is likely to make the game unwinnable at the end.

So, the question is... what information do we have about the town's victory methods? Can we win the old fashioned way by just lynching the right people, or do we need to try and keep power roles alive to the end, like in the first game?

[Beskar]

I think we're at a point where some discussion of the game mechanics is warranted. In the previous game, the only real chance the Jedi had of winning was keeping powerful Jedi alive for most of the game so that they were strong enough to stand up to the Sith in the end. In essence, the only players that truly mattered were power roles. I know ATPG has modified the game goals to make it less rigged than the last game, but I never got any game mechanic info beyond a Jedi Initiate role PM which never changed or improved. So, I am currently unsure of how cautious we need to be about lynching potential power roles. My instinct is to say that in mafia games, the townies need to rely first and foremost on good town play, and not wait to be rescued by power roles. Such an instinct makes me perfectly happy to watch Ignoramus and Joooray get lynched. However, if the game is still a lot like the first game, playing such a scorched earth policy towards potential scum is likely to make the game unwinnable at the end.

So, the question is... what information do we have about the town's victory methods? Can we win the old fashioned way by just lynching the right people, or do we need to try and keep power roles alive to the end, like in the first game?

It is not like that first. There are at least three parties, with two main parties (Jedi, and Sith). They simply just have to kill eachother to win.