Look - the Pope isn't evil!

[Strike For The South]

You do realise I'm a Christian philosopher (not, I should add, a "Christian Philosopher"). My initial training was in Plato and Aristotle, not Augustine.

Ok then pray tell why one should belive in something that has been constantly been proven to be wrong, backwards, and biased?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok then pray tell why one should belive in something that has been constantly been proven to be wrong, backwards, and biased?

I wouldn't belive in such a thing, but that description applies only to a small segment of Christianity, a very small segment.

On the other hand, anything is "biased", all thought systems support certain motivations and not others, that doesn't make them inherently wrong, or not more wrong than each other, in any case.

Much as I feel for you and your loss of faith, I have to tell you that, as a Christian philosopher, such an outcome is hardly surprising to me given the background from which you have come.

Case in point: sex, you get told if you do it without being married you go to hell, but you spend all your time trying to get in with some girl.

Ergo, you have always had a fundamental disconnect there.

[Strike For The South]

I wouldn't belive in such a thing, but that description applies only to a small segment of Christianity, a very small segment.

On the other hand, anything is "biased", all thought systems support certain motivations and not others, that doesn't make them inherently wrong, or not more wrong than each other, in any case.

Much as I feel for you and your loss of faith, I have to tell you that, as a Christian philosopher, such an outcome is hardly surprising to me given the background from which you have come.

Case in point: sex, you get told if you do it without being married you go to hell, but you spend all your time trying to get in with some girl.

Ergo, you have always had a fundamental disconnect there.

All fair enough, I never professed to be the greatest christian nor did my sins trully push me away from the church. I like most Christians were able to compartmentalize those things and still profess a love and belief in Jesus.

What I can't reconcile with is the logical games and holes. I have always had many questions and everytime I have asked them I was given a roundabout hot air answer all tied up with "Jesus loves you"

Anytime you have to bend a beilif system which still claims to be the rigid word of God you lose credibilty.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

All fair enough, I never professed to be the greatest christian nor did my sins trully push me away from the church. I like most Christians were able to compartmentalize those things and still profess a love and belief in Jesus.

This is my major problem with some Protestant denominations, you can't compartmentalise like that, you have to accept yourself, whole and inperfect. I feel bad about my Sins, but I keep trying - and I keep failing to to not turn my head every time a pretty girl walks past so I can look at her backside and rate it on a scale of 1-100.

Still, I try not to dwell on my failings.

What I can't reconcile with is the logical games and holes. I have always had many questions and everytime I have asked them I was given a roundabout hot air answer all tied up with "Jesus loves you"

Anytime you have to bend a beilif system which still claims to be the rigid word of God you lose credibilty.

Well, this was either bad theology or bad explanation - the one would actually be wrong, the other would be glossing over complexity and dumbing down. Either way smells pretty fishy.

For example: The Bible is catagorically not the unmediated Word of God, because it is flawed and God, being perfect, therefore obviously did not write it himself. To suggest otherwise is bad theology, and would have been considered obvious nonsense before the invention of the printing press when you could compare the work of two scribes copying the Bible and detect the corruptions both had created.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What I don't understand is the advantage of religion over philosophy. Can't you arrive at the same conclusions philosophically?

[Moros]

Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla: as someone more informed on Catholic and Christian faith, how do you personally fit this into the church's and the bible's doctrine? I always was learned at Catholic school that sex was only morally okay, when used for reproduction. How then can the condom be morally okay to use when you are bringing someone else in danger of contamination? If this is the case, then one is not using sex for reasons it should? Hence abstinence is the morally correct solution. Thus isn't this rule implying that sex can be used for means other than reproduction?
I'm not against the use of condoms, but this rule doesn't make too much sense to me, when put into the perspective of the larger list of rules. I'm confused about what (I think) I know about catholic rules, now.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla: as someone more informed on Catholic and Christian faith, how do you personally fit this into the church's and the bible's doctrine? I always was learned at Catholic school that sex was only morally okay, when used for reproduction. How then can the condom be morally okay to use when you are bringing someone else in danger of contamination? If this is the case, then one is not using sex for reasons it should? Hence abstinence is the morally correct solution. Thus isn't this rule implying that sex can be used for means other than reproduction?
I'm not against the use of condoms, but this rule doesn't make too much sense to me, when put into the perspective of the larger list of rules. I'm confused about what (I think) I know about catholic rules, now.

For some time now the Church has viewed sex as not only the means of reproduction but as an expression of love and closeness from one half of a married couple for their spouse. The "reproduction only" attitude was never doctrinally correct -- though some felt it should have been and went so far as to suggest sex after menopause was wrong.

The Church DOES assert that sex is part of marriage and that adultery and pre-marital sex "cheapen" what should be a more profound interaction between the spouses whose union has been made sacred through matrimony. The Church opposes condoms for married couples because such interferes with the potential for the creation of life through man's artifice. The Church opposes condoms among the unmarried because it opposes sex among the unmarried -- condom usage therein is secondary to that more basic point.

The Holy Father, responding to what is effectively a lovely "forced choice" question, acknowledged that condom usage to prevent HIV was better than spreading the infection to another -- not a difficult choice really. The Holy Father did NOT assert that extra-marital sex was on the "good" list.

[Reenk Roink]

The Holy Father, responding to what is effectively a lovely "forced choice" question, acknowledged that condom usage to prevent HIV was better than spreading the infection to another -- not a difficult choice really. The Holy Father did NOT assert that extra-marital sex was on the "good" list.

I mean how else did people expect him to respond to a question with these horns?

Granted, given this man is the leader of the Holy Church, and extremely educated AND intelligent, he probably could have just dismissed the journalist and his loaded question with his swag turnt up and have the gravitas to pull it off, but he instead maintained two critical Catholic teachings with a clear answer.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla: as someone more informed on Catholic and Christian faith, how do you personally fit this into the church's and the bible's doctrine? I always was learned at Catholic school that sex was only morally okay, when used for reproduction. How then can the condom be morally okay to use when you are bringing someone else in danger of contamination? If this is the case, then one is not using sex for reasons it should? Hence abstinence is the morally correct solution. Thus isn't this rule implying that sex can be used for means other than reproduction?
I'm not against the use of condoms, but this rule doesn't make too much sense to me, when put into the perspective of the larger list of rules. I'm confused about what (I think) I know about catholic rules, now.

Theologically speaking, all sex leads to Sin.

Well, actually it doesn't you see.....

We are supposed to love God more than anything or anyone else, but during orgasm it's a bit hard to remember that, so sex isn't bad, but it leads to a certain estrangement from God.

Now, the church has always taught that sex within a marriage with someone you love when there is a chance it can lead to creating new life is better than any other kind of sex, but prayer and piety are better full stop.

The Pope's words on condoms fit exactly into this line of thought. Sex with a condom is bad (morally), but sex without a condom risking HIV infection is worse.

[Beskar]

The Pope's words on condoms fit exactly into this line of thought. Sex with a condom is bad (morally), but sex without a condom risking HIV infection is worse.

Not true because in the Catholic faith, a sin, is a sin, is a sin. There is no big or small sins, only sin.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not true because in the Catholic faith, a sin, is a sin, is a sin. There is no big or small sins, only sin.

Oh, of course there are....

There are Venal Sins and Mortal Sins Beskar.

Everything is a Sin, and it is all about degree of severity.

So you were partly right, "there is only sin".

[Rhyfelwyr]

Not true because in the Catholic faith, a sin, is a sin, is a sin. There is no big or small sins, only sin.

That's more a Proddy idea.

[Beskar]

That BBC drama series I watched last night lied to me. :(

[Husar]

We are supposed to love God more than anything or anyone else, but during orgasm it's a bit hard to remember that, so sex isn't bad, but it leads to a certain estrangement from God.

Now, the church has always taught that sex within a marriage with someone you love when there is a chance it can lead to creating new life is better than any other kind of sex, but prayer and piety are better full stop.

So God actually created us hoping that we'd die out very soon because we pray instead of having sex?
If he didn't want us to enjoy sex, he could have created us so we don't enjoy it. I know this argument is a bit of a slippery slope but in th case of sex, which is our only natural way to reproduce, it seems laughable to think that God prefers us not to have it. That's not to say he wouldn't want us to accept certain rules like only doing it within marriage for example.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So God actually created us hoping that we'd die out very soon because we pray instead of having sex?
If he didn't want us to enjoy sex, he could have created us so we don't enjoy it. I know this argument is a bit of a slippery slope but in th case of sex, which is our only natural way to reproduce, it seems laughable to think that God prefers us not to have it. That's not to say he wouldn't want us to accept certain rules like only doing it within marriage for example.

Did I say God didn't want people to have sex? Try reading what I wrote again, then go read the Song of Solomon, preferably while in bed with your wife!

[Don Corleone]

I am really enjoying the irony of watching poor Philipvs playing Papal apologist in this thread. Welcome to our side of the street, mate.

[Husar]

Did I say God didn't want people to have sex? Try reading what I wrote again, then go read the Song of Solomon, preferably while in bed with your wife!

You said it leads to estrangement from God, estrangement from God is something that God does not want, or is that not so?
You also said prayer is always better so if people would strive to always do the best thing, they would always pray instead of having sex, which basically sounds like the only ideal way to please God is to never have sex but pray a whole lot instead. So basically only people who are estranged from God and do not do their best to be close to God can have children, so either God wants you to behave in a non-ideal way by getting children or he wants your family to die out, neither sounds very true to me.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm going to disagree with PVC's take on this. *surprise*

@Husar: God did not make people to spend all day praying, and they aren't commanded to by scripture either. Rather, it says that all aspects of our lives, whether just everyday things like work or even sex, should be sanctified unto the Lord. If they are to be sanctified, they must be done in their proper order, and in the case of sex this means only within marriage. Marriage in Christianity is not some artibrary rule we follow for the sake of discipline or something, it is a creation ordinance rooted in the earliest stories of Genesis. A monogamous relationship between one mand and one woman is part of the natural/inherent nature of mankind, therefore anything else is unnatural and a rebellion agaist God's order.

Sure people will say what about evolution, monogamy is unnatural, spread your seed etc, but I am talking about from a Christian (more specifically, biblical) perspective.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You said it leads to estrangement from God, estrangement from God is something that God does not want, or is that not so?
You also said prayer is always better so if people would strive to always do the best thing, they would always pray instead of having sex, which basically sounds like the only ideal way to please God is to never have sex but pray a whole lot instead. So basically only people who are estranged from God and do not do their best to be close to God can have children, so either God wants you to behave in a non-ideal way by getting children or he wants your family to die out, neither sounds very true to me.

What you are saying would be correct, theologically, if Prayer were only some sort of "act" which one engages in. However, if you concieve of payer in a more spiritual sense as a reaching towards God then it is, theoretically, possible to do that all the time and still, eat, drink, have sex, etc.

From a theological persepctive the problem with this is that we tend to be bad at thinking of God, or even being aware of him, when doing stuff we enjoy.

As I said, read the "Song of Solomon" in bed with your wife.

Personally, I need to take a cold shower every five verses in order to get through that part of the Bible.

[Fragony]

Did I say God didn't want people to have sex? Try reading what I wrote again, then go read the Song of Solomon, preferably while in bed with your wife!

Don't you think that's kinda creepy, not trying to mock you, but isn't that between you and your wive, why would you need anyone's aproval. Not sure what I really want to say but it just screams wrong in my face, it comes across almost as a pervertion to me. I know you don't care about that (and you shouldn't) but it sounds like church sanctioned variety of porn. Same thing but aproved, but why care about aproval when it's so easy to be forgiven.

serious question I really want to understand

[Tuuvi]

Don't you think that's kinda creepy, not trying to mock you, but isn't that between you and your wive, why would you need anyone's aproval. Not sure what I really want to say but it just screams wrong in my face, it comes across almost as a pervertion to me. I know you don't care about that (and you shouldn't) but it sounds like church sanctioned variety of porn. Same thing but aproved, but why care about aproval when it's so easy to be forgiven.

serious question I really want to understand

I've heard that the Song of Solomon is a bit controversial among different denominations, some say it's scripture, some don't, and some grudgingly accept it as an allegory of God's love.

When I got to that part of the Bible I skipped it because my church says it isn't inspired scripture so I didn't bother reading it, but I did glance at it and it didn't seem to be that pornographic to me, it just seemed like any other love poem.