Hibernian Financial Terrorism

[Kagemusha]

That would be great if there were no other factors in every part of the world. Seeing as they are, this is an unbelievably simplistic way of viewing things.

We have other economical deals that cover the globe as well, so this is not any more impossible then those deals. I cant understand why do we have to mutually self destruct our societies and economies, just so investors will be happy and make larger profits.

[HoreTore]

We have other economical deals that cover the globe as well, so this is not any more impossible then those deals. I cant understand why do we have to mutually self destruct our societies and economies, just so investors will be happy and make larger profits.

If it was just about investors making more money....

Unfortunately, this problem is much bigger. It can be compared to giving x number of random big companies a big government subsidy with no string attached. It completely screws over the free market, as the fundamental pillar of a free market is equal rules for everyone.

It keeps dysfunctional garbage companies healthy and profitable while bankrupting healthy companies. It's scary to see how many so-called "supporters of the free market" close their eyes to this. Just goes to show that when most people talk about "the free market" they're actually talking about "screwing over everyone else so I can stuff my own pocket".

[gaelic cowboy]

All we need to do to stop this is to prevent the Bermuda and Dutch angle of this scam, while at the same time ensuring companies pay a fair price for intellectual property to there respective governments.

Once all that is cleared up and done in such a way as there is no other place to flee to then the amount our government collects goes up which is a fair and right thing.

However the problem is that this stuff is all intertwined with all of those corporate banking style rules which go around anyones tax laws and that includes France if it is not done properly it wont change the tax avoidance it will just move and happen again.

Since the G20 and the real big nations make billions from using these tax avoiding Bermuda places there will indeed be no appetite to change this fact of business at all even in France. The graphic posted earlier shows 12.5% is actually avoided here for the majority of there profit as the bulk is moved abroad therefore not our fault whats going on. However this raises an interesting point there are places in Europe with lower tax than Ireland so why pay 12.5% at all if there fake companies making nothing.

The facts of the graphic itself show that Google employs 2000 in Dublin therefore it is clear there not fake they are indeed very real and making actual products and services for consumption.

I agree it is annoying to see companies setup shell companies in Bermuda and Holland but there is no way Ireland can change this in any meaningful way unless everyone changes it together.

[Kagemusha]

If it was just about investors making more money....

Unfortunately, this problem is much bigger. It can be compared to giving x number of random big companies a big government subsidy with no string attached. It completely screws over the free market, as the fundamental pillar of a free market is equal rules for everyone.

It keeps dysfunctional garbage companies healthy and profitable while bankrupting healthy companies. It's scary to see how many so-called "supporters of the free market" close their eyes to this. Just goes to show that when most people talk about "the free market" they're actually talking about "screwing over everyone else so I can stuff my own pocket".

It is quite clear now that the market is global the rules will have to follow and become more or less global also. Mixed economy or Social market economy are to me the only lasting solutions we should base the economical politics globally. Germany and Nordic countries have shown that you can be successful without giving free hand to the market nor the government. Currently we are in a strange downward spiral where governments are making the living standards of their citizens worse in order to attract Corporations to their countries. This is not benefitial to anyone in the long run.

[rory_20_uk]

The WEST is making standards worse as the EAST is competing in more and more Markets. For the last c. 400 years we've managed to bolster our artificially high standard of living by keeping others low. Do we hear the Indians or Chinese retiring on a large pension with comprehensive healthcare at 60 or even 70? How many years do they expect to have after retirement? Here we appear to think 20 years enjoying life is our right. Over there, it's pretty much work until the grave - and unsurprisingly they are more economically competitive because of this.

Globally, the standards of living are increasing, but we squeal as ours is plateauing or even dropping slightly.

[Kagemusha]

The WEST is making standards worse as the EAST is competing in more and more Markets. For the last c. 400 years we've managed to bolster our artificially high standard of living by keeping others low. Do we hear the Indians or Chinese retiring on a large pension with comprehensive healthcare at 60 or even 70? How many years do they expect to have after retirement? Here we appear to think 20 years enjoying life is our right. Over there, it's pretty much work until the grave - and unsurprisingly they are more economically competitive because of this.

Globally, the standards of living are increasing, but we squeal as ours is plateauing or even dropping slightly.

You are bit out fo the loop my friend.Maybe as British you can still carry on the weight of the colonialism, but i refuse that burden. After World War II. The economy has changed a lot from "stealing" raw materials from third world countries refining those and creating profit out of that. Today in healthy economies. 70% of private companies are in service´s sector. Basically it is about trading services.
It is a fact that mass industry has been moving to East for quite some time now in pursuit of cheaper labour, but that does not mean we have to dig a hole to ourselves and moan for the curse of white man´s burden. If we refuse to cut the living standards of our citizens.There is still need for high tech and innovation and with setting good educational opportunities with the money we already have. We will have intellectual resources, which the cheap labour countries in the east can hardly match. So there is no weaping over spilled milk. In this case jobs in mass production industry, which in the end might not even go anywhere, but just stop from existing. There are reason´s why factories are being automationed in the west. It is hard to compete with cheap labour against factories that need hardly any at all.

[rory_20_uk]

And our profits came from this era, they didn't appear, and we then invest in other countries.

Our infrastructure also was made on the back of this. Our Universities started and flourished during this time. Hence why we are currently in the services sector which maximises profits. We have robots as employing people is too expensive. Better robots and unemployed as perversely this system is cheaper.

But when the East starts into computing, Investment Banking and Management Consultancy and charges less for it then we are going to be under increasing pressure.

[Kagemusha]

And our profits came from this era, they didn't appear, and we then invest in other countries.

Our infrastructure also was made on the back of this. Our Universities started and flourished during this time. Hence why we are currently in the services sector which maximises profits. We have robots as employing people is too expensive. Better robots and unemployed as perversely this system is cheaper.

But when the East starts into computing, Investment Banking and Management Consultancy and charges less for it then we are going to be under increasing pressure.

The thing is that in a global economy, when East will go into the things you mentioned.Their living standards have followed as well, creating lot lesser threat then you are painting. Just to mention an example.Japan. For decades it was babbled that the Eastern economical giant will come sooner or later and buy everything off from the west. What happened? They became more prosperious, understood that investing in their children, so that they could get better education would be worth while.They started spending more on luxuries and finally they understood that many of the things that created their prosperity were no longer profitable and relocated that industry automationed it. Same will happen to China eventually, once people get some money they tend to act pretty much the same, no matter where they live.

[gaelic cowboy]

There is still need for high tech and innovation and with setting good educational opportunities with the money we already have. We will have intellectual resources, which the cheap labour countries in the east can hardly match. So there is no weaping over spilled milk. In this case jobs in mass production industry, which in the end might not even go anywhere, but just stop from existing. There are reason´s why factories are being automationed in the west. It is hard to compete with cheap labour against factories that need hardly any at all.

The East turns out piles of cheap graduates every year and it is not as simple as saying they are therefore less educated the standard of living is cheaper therefore they are cheaper. They can retain a cheaper lifestyle due to an oppressive government who will put people in jail if the complain too much and they keep strict control on property in China which ensure plenty cheap rural workers for the factories.

It took well over 100 to 150 years to grow out of a system of cheap labour in Europe however our entire welfare state system can collapse much quicker than the East will get dearer, China/India is likely to retain very large pools of cheap labour for a much longer time than the anyone else in history you cant ignore it.

[Kagemusha]

The East turns out piles of cheap graduates every year and it is not as simple as saying they are therefore less educated the standard of living is cheaper therefore they are cheaper. They can retain a cheaper lifestyle due to an oppressive government who will put people in jail if the complain too much and they keep strict control on property in China which ensure plenty cheap rural workers for the factories.

It took well over 100 to 150 years to grow out of a system of cheap labour in Europe however our entire welfare state system can collapse much quicker than the East will get dearer, China/India is likely to retain very large pools of cheap labour for a much longer time than the anyone else in history you cant ignore it.

I just gave you example of Japan. If China will get more prosperous, do you think the population will not become more prosperous? If they will become more educated.Dont you think they just might start demanding for some more rights? You are making China look like some Boogie man that little children should be scared with. I am sure that China will rise as a global economical power, which is only natural, but i dont think it will be the ruin of us. It is not interest of China either.As in Global economy we all are somewhat dependant upon each other. Afterall China needs buyers for their products.
Bigger threat then China to our wellfare state system are countries that try to exploit the clobal economy by playing with their own rules. I am happy to help Ireland with some of my tax money, just like i was with Greece, but the cost is that your economy will be regulated so that it will follow the European standards and you cant be a tax haven anymore, just like Creece had to stop its ridiculous spending.