Some info on shogun2 units.

[AggonyReborn]

I have been scanning the internet about this "Square" formation, and I cant find that they used it anywhere. Not any type at all! hmmmnn.. doesnt sound right??

[Prince Cobra]

I have been scanning the internet about this "Square" formation, and I cant find that they used it anywhere. Not any type at all! hmmmnn.. doesnt sound right??

Don't worry. I've found something like info (the source was not very exhaustive) and it was said that the ashigarus had different from the western type square formation at the time. But that's really a minor detail, I think/hope/. We are used to seeing some historical inaccuracies in games (it's normal since it's not 100 per cent RL).

Btw, we don't even know what kind of "square" the design leader means. In a way, squares of units (which depth depended on the player) existed in all the TW games so far. We will wait and see.

[Tomisama]

To use such long weapons effectively special training was needed, like European pikemen, ashigaru-spearmen could fight effectively only in tight formations. But unlike European pikemen ashigaru didn't fight in square formations, preferring less deep formations.

http://www.smallsoldiers.ru/english/eredbox2.htm

Spearmen were equipped with the pike (nagae yari). This could be up to eighteen feet long. Japanese pikemen were trained to advance in a loose, fast-moving mass, halting to make a stand or charging forward as the situation demanded. This set them apart from the densely packed, bristling pike squares of contemporary europe.

Samurai Armies 1550 - 1615
Stephen Turnbull
Osprey, 1979
Warriors of Medieval Japan
Stephen Turnbull
Osprey, 2005

Read more at Suite101: Ashigaru: Feudal Japanese Footsoldiers http://www.suite101.com/content/ashi...#ixzz16ogxXbTX

Ashigaru spearmen were to fight in a coordinated formation with the points of their nagae yari moving together. The author then states that the spearmen should 'line up in one rank three shaku apart, not thrusting but at the ready in a large row to hit the enemy. When facing an attack by horsemen line up in one rank kneeling, lie spear down and wait. When contact is imminent lift up the spear head into the area of the horse's breast. When the point pierces the skin hold onto it! Whether you are cutting at men and horses, it may be that you will feel you are being forced to pull out the spear, and it is a general rule to stand fast to the bitter end and not throw into disorder the collaborative actions. After you have driven the enemy back, to pursue for about one cho is sufficient'.
Although the spearmen fought in coordinated units they never employed the rigid formations used by the famous Swiss pikemen, which for the battle of Fornovo in 1495 packed 3,000 pikemen into a unit covering an area of just sixty metres. Ashigaru spearmen liked slightly looser formations so that defence could quickly turn into offence. Some illustrations show spearmen forming a hedge behind the arquebusiers to protect them.

http://www.taots.co.uk/content/view/16/27/

[Gregoshi]

Those first two sources are at odds with each other. The first says they were only effective in tight formations while the second says they were trained to fight in loose formations unlike the Europeans. That leaves CA to make their choice in the matter and thus vulnerable to criticism about historical inaccuracies from formation camp not chosen.

[Swoosh So]

Dont care too much about how accurate the formations are tbh i just want an enjoyable battle.

[AggonyKing]

square formation? hmm me thinks that might be a little vauge :D

regardless, as long as the units are balanced. I think that is what we most want, balanced gameplay.

[Vladimir]

Perhaps they're looking for rectangle or rhombus formation.

Yes, it makes sense to have them in a square. This isn't NTW.

[Tomisama]

Those first two sources are at odds with each other. The first says they were only effective in tight formations while the second says they were trained to fight in loose formations unlike the Europeans. That leaves CA to make their choice in the matter and thus vulnerable to criticism about historical inaccuracies from formation camp not chosen.

The second and third quotes are from the chief advisor to CA about these details.

The first references his works.

And it is possible to have "tight formations" (a single rank can be tight), "trained to advance in a loose, fast-moving mass" (and still be permitted to move responding to a situation in a less rigid but still grouped fashion).

And this is exactly what artwork from the times shows us, a single line with flexability, but never more than three ranks deep in any depiction.


https://img135.imageshack.us/i/battlelanceprint.jpg/

The above mock battle shows the advantages of longer pikes. Note the three ranks of longer pikes (right) holding off a mob (not a formation) of short-shafters (left).

This was only a test