[Faction Switch] Replace Epeiros with Pergamon

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't know if anyone would be interested in this at all, and it might prove too big an undertaking for a mini-mod.

Premise is really simple; take the Epirote faction and turn them into Pergamon instead. That means making Taras, Ambrakia and Epidamnos rebel, and giving them ownership of Pergamon as their sole starting province. Also means a change to the family members and starting armies, along with the homeland/expansion assignments.

I'd recommend using what's in the EBII Stele 6 on Pergamon for details. Would we need to change the culture to Eastern Greek, or are the Ionians considered Western?

Cosmetic changes are easy, faction colour and name I can do myself. I can even manage the alterations to descr_strat.txt (though it's been a long while since I did) for allocation.

What I can't do are things like building queues or availability (is that potentially getting too complicated?). For example their patron god was Athena, which isn't even on the Epirote temple list. Not sure if unit choice needs to be altered either, and whether that makes things much harder (should they have pantodapoi phalangites, rather than deuteroi for example?).

Would anyone be remotely interested in this idea?

[Fluvius Camillus]

Because Epeiros should be Pergamon. Remove them from the equation and it's a much more even contest between Makedonia and Koinon Hellenon.

You really dislike Epeiros don't you.

Thing is, Epeiros may be the first faction to drop from the world stage in history. But what if he succeeded in his campaigns in Magna Graecia or Sicilia? Or the old hag didn't hit the head of Pyrrhos? If they had pushed longer and harder it may have been that Epeiros became a viable kingdom with enough resources to diminish the Antigonids.

But OT, I guess there would be interest in this idea, quite some people liked your migratory campaigns, so probably some of them would like the play those themselves with the depth that this minimod would give.

I guess Pergamon would be a western-greek faction, they are still on the Aegean and eastern buildings in their city would seem weird. Also the rebel city Pergamon in EB is also filled with Western-Greek buildings.

But removing Epeiros probably gives Makedonia a much easier time, not losing their capital early on will make them focus on steamrolling the KH sooner or later. Pergamon would probably be at war with the AS and later Pontos, the already busy Anatolia will be even more chaotic, I don't know what it will do to the balance there.

EB II includes Pergamon too, but that will take some time..

Anyway, good luck with it!

~Fluvius

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Removing Epirus would make Makedon stronger.

But....maybe this could be countered by making Koinon Hellenon stronger as well? For example, what about giving KH Crete at the beginning? And if that's not enough, maybe even give them Thermon too?

Also, maybe, take Pella away from Makedon at the beginning and make it an Eleutheroi city - force Makedon to take Pella back from the 'Epirote Gallic mercenaries' who occupied it under Pyrrhus.

[QuintusSertorius]

As far as AI Makedon on AI Koinon Hellenon, it's a toss-up. In several migration games taking Epeiros away, there doesn't seem to be any hard rule as to which one does better. In some games Makedonia triumphs in Greece. In others it's Koinon Hellenon. Without Epeiros in the mix the two seem fairly well-balanced against each other.

[JG1Beck]

As far as AI Makedon on AI Koinon Hellenon, it's a toss-up. In several migration games taking Epeiros away, there doesn't seem to be any hard rule as to which one does better. In some games Makedonia triumphs in Greece. In others it's Koinon Hellenon. Without Epeiros in the mix the two seem fairly well-balanced against each other.

The times I have seen Makedon stymied by the KH is because their big stack at the start gets beaten down by the Epriotes, even if the Maks ultimately win. Then the KH can pull it together. If the Maks and Epiros ignore each other, as I have seen in several games, then the KH is most always screwed bad. I would venture to say that in most of my games (anecdotal evidence- I didn't track stats here) the KH is most always relegated to Rhodes, and perhaps Halicarnassos if it rebels to them and they fortify it.

One solution would be to give Ambrakia a defender stack with Pyrrhos at its head, and perhaps stick a rebel army in Makedonia somewhere as well. Just something to occupy the Makedonians at game start so they can't steamroll the KH out of the gate.

[Ludens]

I'd recommend using what's in the EBII Stele 6 on Pergamon for details. Would we need to change the culture to Eastern Greek, or are the Ionians considered Western?

Eastern Greek is for factions that had a Macedonian ruling class, but mostly non-Hellene subjects. Ionians were Hellenes, so Pergamon should be western Greek. Whether they should get pantodapoi or deuteroi phalangites is an interesting question. They are Hellenes, but not Makedones, so their levies would have fought as hoplites. Since their likely expansion is into Asia Minor, pantodapoi also make more sense. This is not that difficult to mod, but it will take some work to place all the pantodapoi recruitment entries in the EDB (and remove those of the Epeirote deuteroi). I'd be more concerned about Pergamon's lack of elites.

I am not sure what you mean by building queue's and availability. If you are talking about the homeland/expansion markers, IIRC these are placed by the campaign script (the script that runs automatically at the start of every campaign). You also need to alter the running script to make sure that A.I. Pergamon gets its governments placed correctly. Changing the temple names and descriptive texts is easy. All you need to do is edit the .txt files.

Moving to the submod forum.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks for the move, Ludens, I only realised I posted it in the wrong place after the fact.

Agreed on the culture, Ionians are "Western" for our purposes.

I think you're probably right on the difficulties of changing the recruitment roster. I can see your point about the lack of elites, though it's never really been much of an issue when I've played (though in fairness I don't have much use for elites).

Script editing. Mostly it's changing some expansion to homeland, and some homeland to expansion. As well as removing a load of expansion tags beyond Greece and Asia Minor.

[Havok.]

Removing Epirus would make Makedon stronger.

But....maybe this could be countered by making Koinon Hellenon stronger as well? For example, what about giving KH Crete at the beginning? And if that's not enough, maybe even give them Thermon too?

Also, maybe, take Pella away from Makedon at the beginning and make it an Eleutheroi city - force Makedon to take Pella back from the 'Epirote Gallic mercenaries' who occupied it under Pyrrhus.

By the mean time i think you guys should focus on just changing Epeiros to Pergamon, after the main objective is accomplished, you guys discuss tweaks and balances to the campaign if you guys find necessary.
First things first.

But yes, this idea is quite interesting, looking forward to see other replies in here.