Authentic Settlements

[Folgore]

But surely there are some cities on the map which are already the largest size (or will be reaching the largest size in a few years) at the start of the game? Rome, Carthage, Alexandria. Those cities all have their own characteristic layouts, which could make for some epic siege battles.

What would be the limitations of custom cities? Can you have rivers running through them like Rome? Can they be on the coast like Carthage? Or flanked by water on two sides, like Alexandria? Or do you need to be able to attack the city from all directions?

At any rate, the amount of effort required is just a matter of time and manpower. ;)

[Ludens]

But surely there are some cities on the map which are already the largest size (or will be reaching the largest size in a few years) at the start of the game? Rome, Carthage, Alexandria.

Err... Alexandria had been founded only half a century before, and IIRC it was yet to become the Ptolemean capital. Rome was already old, but the Roman empire was only beginning to rise so no doubt the town would have been fairly provincial at this point. Of those three, only Carthage was past serious growth.

At any rate, the amount of effort required is just a matter of time and manpower.

You're volunteering?

[Maeran]

Custom battle map castles could have moats, so you could adapt that into a river I suppose. I have been working on learning how to do this, but it is such early days for me that I can only really say that such things can be done. (I can export MTW2 objects and edit them, and I can build 3d models of Greek temples and round houses. Marrying the 2 is my next challenge)

Actually, I'm not certain that actual representations of historical cities would be good from a gaming point of view. The scale is wrong for a start.

[Folgore]

Err... Alexandria had been founded only half a century before, and IIRC it was yet to become the Ptolemean capital. Rome was already old, but the Roman empire was only beginning to rise so no doubt the town would have been fairly provincial at this point. Of those three, only Carthage was past serious growth.

As I understand it, Alexandria grew to be larger than Carthage in little over one generation and to the largest city in the world in just over a century. As for Rome though, you are probably right.

You're volunteering?

It's been a while since I modeled anything. :o

[Ludens]

As I understand it, Alexandria grew to be larger than Carthage in little over one generation and to the largest city in the world in just over a century. As for Rome though, you are probably right.

Wikipedia agrees with you, but I find it hard to credit. Cities like Carthage and Imperial Rome had to import massive amounts of grain and wine (because the water wasn't safe). The infrastructure required for that alone is staggering and given pre-modern logistics would take years to establish. If Alexandria grew to Carthage's size within twenty years, most of it would have been shanty towns.

[Ichon]

But Alexandria is sitting by a vast river delta... vs Carthage especially and Rome which had centuries to develop the infrastructure to import from overseas. A river barge is much easier to build and control than sea going vessels. Besides- Carthage was never hugely populated, at least compared to some other ancient cities so 1 generation seems reasonanble. For Alexandria to surpass Rome in 20 years would be most questionable but not neceessarily in 100 years.

[moonburn]

But Alexandria is sitting by a vast river delta... vs Carthage especially and Rome which had centuries to develop the infrastructure to import from overseas. A river barge is much easier to build and control than sea going vessels. Besides- Carthage was never hugely populated, at least compared to some other ancient cities so 1 generation seems reasonanble. For Alexandria to surpass Rome in 20 years would be most questionable but not neceessarily in 100 years.

600.000 people is not hugely populated ? even today 99% of city´s don´t have that big a number (and no metropolitan areas don´t count as 1 single city)

they where the 1st one´s to buildupwards because they had space problems :| (you know 6 store high buildings)

[Tellos Athenaios]

they where the 1st one´s to build upwards because they had space problems

If you refer to the cause, I would not know; if you refer them doing that then you're definitely wrong about the “1st one's” bit.

[Ludens]

But Alexandria is sitting by a vast river delta... vs Carthage especially and Rome which had centuries to develop the infrastructure to import from overseas. A river barge is much easier to build and control than sea going vessels.

True, but shipping is not the limiting factor. Ships will turn up automatically when there are trade opportunities. The limitation are the docks, storages and distribution networks. Are there sources for Alexandria's rapid growth? The cited reference in the Wikipedia article seems to be about culture rather than demographics.

That said: I just realized one of my arguments against the rapid growth of Alexandria is false. A city that big needs a massive import of grain. Because the Classical world did not have a food surplus, I reasoned this meant that the Ptolemids were paying for the grain, and that someone else was going short. However, Egypt did have a major grain surplus (they were one of the biggest exporters) so they could afford it.

[Ichon]

True, but shipping is not the limiting factor. Ships will turn up automatically when there are trade opportunities. The limitation are the docks, storages and distribution networks. Are there sources for Alexandria's rapid growth? The cited reference in the Wikipedia article seems to be about culture rather than demographics.

That said: I just realized one of my arguments against the rapid growth of Alexandria is false. A city that big needs a massive import of grain. Because the Classical world did not have a food surplus, I reasoned this meant that the Ptolemids were paying for the grain, and that someone else was going short. However, Egypt did have a major grain surplus (they were one of the biggest exporters) so they could afford it.

I mention the river and delta because it is much easier to ship from there than the harbors and docks required for ocean going ships, also it is not as regulated by season. Nile has more than 2 growing seasons and partially why they had a surplus. I don't know if the limit on getting food would be a handicap much at all. More would be simply building the necessary buildings and sewage for that many people in short time. I guess they could just dump everything into the delta though.

600.000 people is not hugely populated ? even today 99% of city´s don´t have that big a number (and no metropolitan areas don´t count as 1 single city)

they where the 1st one´s to buildupwards because they had space problems :| (you know 6 store high buildings)

600.000? That is high estimate... it was more like 1/2 that during Punic wars. Revival under Roman rule later when entire population everywhere grew was maybe close to 500,00.

[Greenlizard0.]

As I understand it, Alexandria grew to be larger than Carthage in little over one generation and to the largest city in the world in just over a century. As for Rome though, you are probably right.

Well, if you search for this book in Google Books (or Google Scholar): Settlements of the Ptolemies: city foundations and new settlement in the Hellenistic world

Then at page 96 you will find a estimated population of Alexandria in mid-third century BC: 25000-75000 inhabitants (If I understood the page correctly)

Not exactly the largest city, I think.