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  1. #1
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Now, now our good ancient claims are on Finland.

    A united Scandivia only needs to be looking 500 years back and changing who the dominant nation was.

    Anyway, more on topic: He seems to be the "soul searching into something stupidly radical" type. Came to Sweden from Iraq at age ten 1992, been radicalising and traveling abroad (often in the Middle East) in the last few years.
    And failed miserably because of screaming amateurism it's almost comical, well it is actually pretty comical. Can't believe people are making this so big it's rediculous to do, it's nothing keep your calms (as Swedes did). If this was the worst problem things would be really nice but it's much more dangerous socially speaking intended or not, 'attacks' don't help adressing the real issue: political correctness, Top-down blind faith in a flawed society where everybody is bound to feel lost.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-14-2010 at 21:37.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    If this was the worst problem things would be really nice but it's much more dangerous socially speaking intended or not, 'attacks' don't help adressing the real issue: political correctness, Top-down blind faith in a flawed society where everybody is bound to feel lost.
    Not really, you see simular behavior in the local right- and leftwing extremists, or religious "reborns". The suecide bomber is somewhat unique though.

    It's a serious small scale problem, but not a huge issue. 0,3% of the terrorist actions in Europe (2006-2009) was related to Islam. But they do attempt to make it big when they try.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    It's prett clear what the Qu'ran says some just mentally block it because multiculture is a religion as well. But things like things like this distract from the real villains like Ramadan and that Rouf guy

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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    "Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. "
    Being slain in battle is not the same as suicide. I'm not interested in a theological debate. That verse is stupid, hell, if you ask me, the entire Qur'an is basically pretty stupid, but I'm not interested in debating the origins of the Qur'an or where what verse came from, what it means and how it should be interpreted. That's something for the theologians. And if you ask me, I think it's better if the whole Sunni world would get back the old Mu'tazilite position that the Qur'an is not "the final and unalterable word of god".

    EDIT: What irks me about your post is the fact that you said that "according to Islam" the only way for Muslims to get into heaven is through slaying and being slain. And that's...not really true.
    Last edited by Hax; 12-15-2010 at 17:48. Reason: grammatik
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    I'm a pragmatist. The fact is this document causes a small but significant minority to kill themselves and others. The question is how to stop them doing this within the UK. Whether by alterations to education, surveillance, deportation or a combination of all three is where I see the most productive debate taking place.

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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    I'm a pragmatist. The fact is this document causes a small but significant minority to kill themselves and others. The question is how to stop them doing this within the UK. Whether by alterations to education, surveillance, deportation or a combination of all three is where I see the most productive debate taking place.
    I concur. I don't think that deportation would be a good way to do it. They'd come back (illegally, if needed) and then blow themselves up.
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    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Being slain in battle is not the same as suicide.
    Look, if you want to debate whether that verse covers suicide bombing, you will have to do that with the jihadists. They clearly think it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax
    And if you ask me, I think it's better if the whole Sunni world would get back the old Mu'tazilite position that the Qur'an is not "the final and unalterable word of god".
    So do I, but that is not very likely to happen, and the world is as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax
    EDIT: What irks me about your post is the fact that you said that "according to Islam" the only way for Muslims to get into heaven is through slaying and being slain. And that's...not really true.
    Then perhaps I can quell that irk and inform you that you misunderstood my post. I did not say that muslims must do it to get into heaven. However, whenever the Quran talks about getting into heaven, it makes it clear that it is a gift, not a reward: you cannot earn it, no matter how good you are (see Surah 28:67). It does make one exception though, and that is as in the above quoted Sura 9:111. That is, according to the Quran, the only way to be guaranteed a place in heaven - and a special place at that - is by "killing and being killed for Allah". That's what I was saying.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 12-15-2010 at 20:43.

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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Look, if you want to debate whether that verse covers suicide bombing, you will have to do that with the jihadists. They clearly think it does.
    Yeah, but they are stupid. We both know that. Good point, though.

    So do I, but that is not very likely to happen, and the world is as it is.
    Eh, I'm not so sure. It's recently been proposed again in some points (most famously by 'Ali Abdel Raziq), and while it's still not any good right now, perhaps opinions will change. The Wahhabist movement is no older than 200 years, maybe it'll die out as just another unsuccessful offspring.

    Then perhaps I can quell that irk and inform you that you misunderstood my post. I did not say that muslims must do it to get into heaven. However, whenever the Quran talks about getting into heaven, it makes it clear that it is a gift, not a reward: you cannot earn it. It does make one exception though, and that is in the above quoted Sura 9:111. That is, according to the Quran, the only way to be guaranteed a place in heaven - and a special place at that - is by "killing and being killed for Allah". That's what I was saying.
    That doesn't really make any sense, and I think if you ask two imams on who gets into heaven, you'll get three different answers. Like in the other Abrahamic Religions, it's either hell or heaven. Where do you go if not to hell, nor heaven?
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
    I don't think that the concept of Purgatory exists in Islam. The concept of an impermanent hell does exist, and the only theological argument I can think of, is that people just remain in their coffins until Judgement Day.
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    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax
    That doesn't really make any sense, and I think if you ask two imams on who gets into heaven, you'll get three different answers. Like in the other Abrahamic Religions, it's either hell or heaven. Where do you go if not to hell, nor heaven?
    I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.

    If you want this substantiated, look to what Muhammed is supposed to have said:

    "No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell -- not even me, without the grace of God."

    Surahs from the Quran, like 9:111 quoted above, make the exception for martyrdom.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 12-16-2010 at 01:02.

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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.
    This debate will end up in something concerning interpretation, as is often the case with theology. I know of imams that say that polytheists will get into paradise if they have lived a good life. I know of imams that say that secular muslims will end up in hell for all eternity.

    In any case, this is pointless, really.
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