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Thread: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

  1. #61
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Purgatory as any good Catholic would say. You just disappear if you're an atheist though.
    I don't think that the concept of Purgatory exists in Islam. The concept of an impermanent hell does exist, and the only theological argument I can think of, is that people just remain in their coffins until Judgement Day.
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  2. #62
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax
    That doesn't really make any sense, and I think if you ask two imams on who gets into heaven, you'll get three different answers. Like in the other Abrahamic Religions, it's either hell or heaven. Where do you go if not to hell, nor heaven?
    I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.

    If you want this substantiated, look to what Muhammed is supposed to have said:

    "No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell -- not even me, without the grace of God."

    Surahs from the Quran, like 9:111 quoted above, make the exception for martyrdom.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 12-16-2010 at 01:02.

  3. #63
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    I don't see how this makes any less sense than any heaven-story. If you don't follow the teachings of Islam, you go to hell. If you follow the teachings of Islam, then you have a chance - but only if Allah wills it. However, if you die as a martyr, then you've essentially signed a contract with Allah, and you will be guaranteed a place in heaven.
    This debate will end up in something concerning interpretation, as is often the case with theology. I know of imams that say that polytheists will get into paradise if they have lived a good life. I know of imams that say that secular muslims will end up in hell for all eternity.

    In any case, this is pointless, really.
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  4. #64
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Some people just refuse to accept that there are other inteerpretations than OBL's.

    Muslims are just as capable of emphasizing different things in the quran as christians are with the bible. There will be muslims who emphasize violence, and there will be muslims who emphasize peace, and they can both find support for their position in the quran. Just like both feminists and those who believe women belong in the kitchen can find support for their position in the bible. Or the quran for that matter.

    I know christians who say that their god is opposed to any and all violence. And I was in the army with a christian who refered to himself as a holy warrior.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 12-16-2010 at 14:59.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  5. #65
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Some people refuse to accept that everybody but a few idiots know that

  6. #66
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Frags just made a post without referring to "the leftist church"!!

    Anybody got the cake and fireworks to celebrate?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  7. #67
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Frags just made a post without referring to "the leftist church"!!
    No need, it's there for everyone to see

  8. #68
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Some people just refuse to accept that there are other inteerpretations than OBL's.

    Muslims are just as capable of emphasizing different things in the quran as christians are with the bible. There will be muslims who emphasize violence, and there will be muslims who emphasize peace, and they can both find support for their position in the quran. Just like both feminists and those who believe women belong in the kitchen can find support for their position in the bible. Or the quran for that matter.

    I know christians who say that their god is opposed to any and all violence. And I was in the army with a christian who refered to himself as a holy warrior.
    As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.

    It's what they do, not why they do it.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  9. #69
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.

    It's what they do, not why they do it.

    How was that related to what I was talking about?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  10. #70
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.

    It's what they do, not why they do it.

    Yes.

    I find that I have never in the very slightest been at all interested in which Koranic verse or whose prophet says what that legitimises which violent act, or not.


    Why should I care? I care about it not at all more than I do whether a street mugger wants to steal my wallet for flashy sneakers or new gold teeth.
    I don't care what you've read in your fantasy books, whether Sauron has told you I'm an evil hobbit or whether *certain man with an uncommon marital choice* promised you dozens of virgins. It's all fine with me, just don't involve me, for example, by blowimg me up.
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  11. #71
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Well, besides enabling us to do something about it, the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread, which leftists so eagerly swallow. They are not attacking us for anything that we have done or anything that we are doing: they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so. We need to be very clear on the fact that we have every right to fight them, and that continuing this road of appeasement will not make them stop. It will only embolden them to make more and more demands, until we've been completely stripped of our liberties and are forced to live our whole lives by their instructions.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 12-17-2010 at 16:28.

  12. #72
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.
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  13. #73
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.
    No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.

    As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invented a religion right here and now that called for violence and massmurder, and I then commited violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 12-17-2010 at 18:33.

  14. #74
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.
    Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.

    As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invent a religion right here and right now that calls for violence and massmurder, and I then commit violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?
    I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent. Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion, as we've seen that notable Islamic scholars, even from right after Muhammad's death have re-interpreted the Qur'an to say something else. The Sabians of Iraq? Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.

    the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread
    Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?

    they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so.
    Oh yeah? Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?

    You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing. And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite. You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.

    And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people. Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.
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  15. #75
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    It's what they do, not why they do it.

    Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  16. #76
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.
    But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.

  17. #77
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.
    Exactly. We need to differentiate.
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  18. #78
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
    Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...
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  19. #79
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Oh yes, female circumcision, the african practice performed by members of a dozen religions.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  20. #80
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave View Post
    There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
    Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...
    People who say the Islam isn't violent can't read, but fact remains that only a tiny percentage of western muslims are violent. They may aprove violence when you ask them, Qu'ran says, but they aren't violent themselves. We don't have the balls to do what needs to be done, treating the real radicals like foreign spies in wartime, we are at war with radical Islam after all

  21. #81
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Yes, and the very last thing we need to do is pretend that all Muslims are a potential threat, alienating those Muslims who are opposed to the radicals. After all, as you said, it's their battle.
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  22. #82
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.
    Uh, no. If you think they could, without lying their teeth out, then I have no idea what world you're living in. Seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent.
    Have you read the Quran? The Hadith? Any of the quotes I gave you? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion
    You didn't, and you haven't. You're even willing to rewrite history to keep your little delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.
    And I suppose you've bought into this lie that the life of a dhimmi is, was or will ever be the same as tolerance? Or respect? It wasn't. It's why Christians are referred to as "street sweepers" in muslim countries, because dhimmis are relegated to that kind of demeaning work. The point is that they have to not just be subdued, but constantly feel themselves to be like that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?
    Taqiyya isn't just a shiite doctrine, it's in sunni islam as well. It's based on Muhammed himself, when he told an assassin that he had the right to lie if he had to do it in order to murder his target (a jew who was saying bad things about islam).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Oh yeah?
    Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?
    ...

    Wow. Just... wow. Perhaps you'd like to read the story that this very thread is about?

    I mean... wow. You can't be this... wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing.
    Sigh. I'm getting the feeling that you're just trolling me now. Not all jihadis are active in killing people all the time. You are strawmanning me, because you know very well that you have no real argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite.
    There's plenty of passages that supports my view in the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence. You, on the other hand, have nothing to point to. You have no basis for that belief. We'd all like the world to be a pink, perfect little land where everyone could get along and sing kumbaya, but that's not the reality that we live in. It's dangerous not to acknowledge that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.
    And yet, they have perfect support from the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence, and nothing that disagrees with them. But never mind that! They must be wrong! Why? Because I believe so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people.
    So what? Of course there's infighting in islam. I know this. This isn't exactly an argument for why islam is a peaceful religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.
    Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 12-22-2010 at 15:14.

  23. #83
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking View Post
    Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?
    There are "moderate" muslims, they just don't get the airtime. What gets noticed and put on the media is rabid global Jihadi bollox and rabid anti muslim bollox.

  24. #84
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    They don't feel they should excuse for what they didn't do, isn't it a bit unfair to ask them to apologise for what they didn't do? It isn't an organised religion like teh catholics they don't feel like having to answer to anything when it concerns such acts. Fine with that. I despise the Islam untill it's very molecular structure but asking the ordinary muslim to reject terrorism is no different from asking a normal catholic to publicaly condemn child-rape, why should he

  25. #85
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Good point Frags. You also got a christian analogy in there for good measure, we'll make a dhimmi of you yet!

  26. #86
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    The Celtic Viking: Chill the out man, I'm not calling for your death or anything. Relax, seriously.

    Uh, no. If you think they could, without lying their teeth out, then I have no idea what world you're living in. Seriously.
    Eh, yes, I do. My point was that your perception of Islam and al-Zarqawi's or Osama Bin Laden's perception of Islam are virtually the same. You regard it as a violent religion, they regard it as a violent religion.

    Have you read the Quran? The Hadith? Any of the quotes I gave you? No?
    I have read a lot of the Qur'an, parts of ahadith, and those quotes, too.

    You didn't, and you haven't. You're even willing to rewrite history to keep your little delusion.
    Getting ahead of facts. I analyse Islamic political theory and history. "My little delusion" is founded mainly on research conducted by Hugh Kennedy (Muhammad and the Age of the Caliphates, The History of Muslim Spain and Portugal) and Antony Black (The History of Islamic Political Thought).

    And I suppose you've bought into this lie that the life of a dhimmi is, was or will ever be the same as tolerance? Or respect? It wasn't. It's why Christians are referred to as "street sweepers" in muslim countries, because dhimmis are relegated to that kind of demeaning work. The point is that they have to not just be subdued, but constantly feel themselves to be like that as well.
    Citation required.

    I was arguing about the popularity and the historical frequence of Quranic interpretation.

    Taqiyya isn't just a shiite doctrine, it's in sunni islam as well. It's based on Muhammed himself, when he told an assassin that he had the right to lie if he had to do it in order to murder his target (a jew who was saying bad things about islam).
    Taqiyya, while present in both Shi'ite and Sunnite doctrine, as you rightly pointed out, is explained in more detail in Shi'a Islam than in Sunni Islam. I'm not aware of the exact historical precedent from which it originated, but I'm willing to bet that this event is not so much an example as it is an exception. Taqiyya has largely been interpretated as "lying to save your life", not "lying to be able to kill someone at a later point that is insulting you". Of course, al-Zarqawi would disagree with me.

    Yeah.
    Okay.

    ...

    Wow. Just... wow. Perhaps you'd like to read the story that this very thread is about?

    I mean... wow. You can't be this... wow.
    Yes.

    Sigh. I'm getting the feeling that you're just trolling me now. Not all jihadis are active in killing people all the time. You are strawmanning me, because you know very well that you have no real argument.
    I don't feel obliged to respond to this at all.

    There's plenty of passages that supports my view in the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence. You, on the other hand, have nothing to point to. You have no basis for that belief. We'd all like the world to be a pink, perfect little land where everyone could get along and sing kumbaya, but that's not the reality that we live in. It's dangerous not to acknowledge that.
    Yes, and there are also verses in the Qur'an that support my point of view. So what? We can spend this entire time throwing Qur'anic verses at eachother and arguing on how a verse should be interpreted and in what context.

    I don't disagree with the fact that there are some very problematic things with Islamic culture as it is now, but we should clearly seperate the Qur'an, historical events and the present situation. They are naturally intertwined, but you can't point out the present situation, claiming it is absolutely and completely based on the Qur'an and completely ignoring all historical events.

    And yet, they have perfect support from the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence, and nothing that disagrees with them. But never mind that! They must be wrong! Why? Because I believe so!
    Okay, I don't really know what you're trying to say with that last part, but eh. In any case, no, they have perfect support from their interpretation of the Islamic texts. Interpretation. You ever heard of Shaykh Ali Abdel Raziq?

    So what? Of course there's infighting in islam. I know this. This isn't exactly an argument for why islam is a peaceful religion.
    Missing the point, it's not about infighting, they're not killing Muslims they believe to be non-Muslims, they're killing other Muslims. Why? I don't really know. To attract attention.

    Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?
    Yes, and we had moderate Muslims condemning the threats directed to the employees of Jyllands-Posten:

    However, the Organization of the Islamic Conference has denounced calls for the death of the Danish cartoonists. OIC's Secretary General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu stated in a press release:
    The Secretary General appeals to the Muslims to stay calm and peaceful in the wake of sacrilegious depiction of Prophet Muhammad which has deeply hurt their feelings. He has stated that Islam being the religion of tolerance, mercy and peace teaches them to defend their faith through democratic and legal means.
    This took me less than a minute to find on Wikipedia.

    As a final note, as most here probably know, I come from a partially Islamic family. My father is one of the supporters of the same Ali Abdel Raziq I mentioned earlier (if you don't know who he is, he spoke out against the concept of the Caliphate and the Islamic state, arguing in favour of laïcité). I have noticed visible contrasts between the Islam* I experienced at home, the Islam I experienced when reading or watching the news, and the Islam I analysed historically.

    I'm not willing to believe, and I have very little reason to believe, that all Muslims are potential suicide bombers. I might be misguided due to my family's influence, but I don't really think so. I wasn't forcefed Islam from birth. I wasn't circumcised at age seven. I have never had to recite the shahada. I chose to search out the roots of Islam, not from a theological point of view (it just doesn't appeal to me), but from a historical point of view, and I have found that while there have been surges and changes in the perception of Islam (from Al-Ghazali's refutation of the Philosophers to Ibn-Taymiyya's interpretation of Jihad, to the writings of Ibn-Khaldun and finally the writings of the Iranian ayatollahs, al-Afghani ("I went to the West, and saw Islam, but no Muslims, and I went to the East, where I found Muslims, but saw no Islam"), and Ali Abdel Raziq, I am very optimistic for the future of Islam. But then, I've always been a fairly optimistic person.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  27. #87
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    I'm not willing to believe, and I have very little reason to believe, that all Muslims are potential suicide bombers. I might be misguided due to my family's influence, but I don't really think so. I wasn't forcefed Islam from birth. I wasn't circumcised at age seven. I have never had to recite the shahada. I chose to search out the roots of Islam, not from a theological point of view (it just doesn't appeal to me), but from a historical point of view, and I have found that while there have been surges and changes in the perception of Islam (from Al-Ghazali's refutation of the Philosophers to Ibn-Taymiyya's interpretation of Jihad, to the writings of Ibn-Khaldun and finally the writings of the Iranian ayatollahs, al-Afghani ("I went to the West, and saw Islam, but no Muslims, and I went to the East, where I found Muslims, but saw no Islam"), and Ali Abdel Raziq, I am very optimistic for the future of Islam. But then, I've always been a fairly optimistic person.
    If only Sayyid Qutb thought as you and these gentlemen did then the world might be a bit differ today.

    If you ask me he started the whole mess we have today where the majority of islamic terrorism is against other muslims.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 12-22-2010 at 21:47.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  28. #88
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    It's very recent, yeah started with him. The Muslim Brotherhood, insanily dangerous folks

    Like Hax I'm optimistic for teh muslims, but only because Islam is pure fail, hardly more. If not now it's soon. Iran is going to be the epicentre of it's modernisation nobody is going to hold a force of nature forever
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-22-2010 at 22:19.

  29. #89
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    It's very recent, yeah started with him. The Muslim Brotherhood, insanily dangerous folks
    There mad in the head if you ask me
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  30. #90
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

    If only Sayyid Qutb thought as you and these gentlemen did then the world might be a bit differ today.

    If you ask me he started the whole mess we have today where the majority of islamic terrorism is against other muslims.
    Well, it's kinda sad, because he never actually called for violent acts. It's so bitter, because although they may know the Qur'an by heart, have the ahadith summarised in their heads and argue amongst themselves how long your beard should be before you can cut it off, doesn't mean they actually comprehend its message. When I talk to Muslims nowadays (especially those living in the US), they say that the literalists annoy them the most. They don't think they should take everything in the Qur'an as direct instructions on what you have to do in this life. What makes it even worse is that there have been serious attempts at reform, especially out of Egypt, but they've largely been ignored or overlooked.
    This space intentionally left blank.

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