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Thread: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stability?

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  1. #1
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    In societies without robust political and democratic institutions, people rely on a network of family, ethnic, tribal, geographic and other institutional influences to affect changes in their lives. This isn't a peculiarity of the middle east, it's just a necessary political strategy for societies with this level of political development
    But why would democracy be a necessity at all? An old middle eastern proverb I just made up 'who's in control doesn't negotiate'.

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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    But why would democracy be a necessity at all? An old middle eastern proverb I just made up 'who's in control doesn't negotiate'.
    You answer yourself in a way, in a properly balanced democracy, no-one holds enough power to not have to negotiate. It is at once the greatest strangth and weakness of democracies. There is a school of thought that "benevolent autocracy" can produce better results and quicker than democracy, but the "benevolence" of autocracy is statisticaly quite fleeting -and of course we need not go into the possible damage by autocracies.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    You answer yourself in a way, in a properly balanced democracy, no-one holds enough power to not have to negotiate. It is at once the greatest strangth and weakness of democracies. There is a school of thought that "benevolent autocracy" can produce better results and quicker than democracy, but the "benevolence" of autocracy is statisticaly quite fleeting -and of course we need not go into the possible damage by autocracies.
    Someone has the hold the knife that slices the pie, in a democracy everybody wants to be that, and we at least can expect it to be not all too unfair. Wouldn't the Middle Eastern countries benefit from an enlighted despot or even a theocrate who's authority isn't to be doubted, bit like a referee to solve disputes.
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-07-2011 at 16:22.

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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Someone has the hold the knife that slices the pie, in a democracy everybody wants to be that, and we at least can expect it to be not all too unfair. Wouldn't the Middle Eastern countries benefit from an enlighted despot or even a theocrate who's authority isn't to be doubted, bit like a referee to solve disputes.
    That's kind of the point of democracy though, all the seperate parts (legislative, executive, judicial) should push against themselves and hence support the whole system.

    With the best will in the world, saying that the people of the middle east need something different to democracy smacks a bit of orientalism: that "they" only recognise a strong man and that "we", by inference, are naturaly more democratic. I know you don't mean it like that but democracy is just a system, as is monarchy or dictatorship. People almost certainly said that monarchism was the natural/most culturaly appropriate thing in Europe during the 1700s, but thank god, we are no longer stuck in the societies of the 1700s.

    That said, there are some within political Islam who are not keen on democracy, ostensibly becasue they regard it as a foreign/christian invention and hence alien to Islam. My feeling is that these people are those who stand to loose more from a balanced and hence potentially less theocratic state, so of course they don't like the idea of it.
    Last edited by al Roumi; 01-07-2011 at 17:03. Reason: sp

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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    That said, there are some within political Islam who are not keen on democracy, ostensibly becasue they regard it as a foreign/christian invention and hence alien to Islam. My feeling is that these people are those who stand to loose more from a balanced and hence potentially less theocratic state, so of course they don't like the idea of it.
    Great posts, good points overall, however i beg to differ on this last line, outside of theocrats, islamist movements do believe in some sort of democratic voting system, it isn't something western or foreign since the first four caliphs after muhammed were voted in, by what would be called a Bai'ah. Its not exactly progressive in this day and age, since it relied on the person having knowledge in alot of islamic qanun and shariah, the point is democracy as a system isn't really alien, and there is alot of literature that goes back to the 50s to support that, as well as the recent egyptian elections fiasco (the muslim brotherhood supported El Baradeis platform which was secular).
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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    Great posts, good points overall, however i beg to differ on this last line
    How funny, I could say the same to you, your consumate intelligency...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    the recent egyptian elections fiasco (the muslim brotherhood supported El Baradeis platform which was secular).
    ...not without a degree of internal discussion, and strife, did the MB support El Baradei.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    The need for democracy is a bit too whitemenguildish for me. Let them do it their way they'll figure it out.

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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stabil

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    How funny, I could say the same to you, your consumate intelligency...


    ...not without a degree of internal discussion, and strife, did the MB support El Baradei.
    The fact they reached that decision is telling, it wasn't because of democracy, but rather some of his [al baradei] more secular policies.
    Last edited by Leet Eriksson; 01-07-2011 at 22:37. Reason: removed some clutter
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