Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stability?

[Fragony]

Any examples to back this up, or are you shooting from the hip again?

Kidding me? Can you name me one African or Middle-Eastern democracy that can hold a candle to the western ones? They have a running joke in Egypt where a burglar finds the winners of the next elections, such fatalist humour exists for a reason. Means to and end, not democracy as the end. Not saying they are unfit for democracy, but these countries are much more complicated. Again, clanwars 2.0, less bloody, but hardly ideal. And often bloody.

[Leet Eriksson]

Kidding me? Can you name me one African or Middle-Eastern democracy that can hold a candle to the western ones? They have a running joke in Egypt where a burglar finds the winners of the next elections, such fatalist humour exists for a reason. Means to and end, not democracy as the end. Not saying they are unfit for democracy, but these countries are much more complicated. Again, clanwars 2.0, less bloody, but hardly ideal. And often bloody.

lol are you serious? how is egypt a democracy again? just because it calls itself one doesn't mean it is. This is a rather euro/western centric view to claim that non-western countries have no agency and are only capable of being ruled by an iron fist, too simplistic and terribly wrong.

[Fragony]

lol are you serious? how is egypt a democracy again? just because it calls itself one doesn't mean it is. This is a rather euro/western centric view to claim that non-western countries have no agency and are only capable of being ruled by an iron fist, too simplistic and terribly wrong.

Exactly what I said no?

[Subotan]

Botswana

[al Roumi]

Botswana

Ghana's not bad either. (AFAIK)

[Leet Eriksson]

Ghana's not bad either. (AFAIK)

The congo too, well back in the 50s that is. To fragony, i think i take issue with the way you word things, but you seem to understand the situations fairly well, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Fragony]

The congo too, well back in the 50s that is. To fragony, i think i take issue with the way you word things, but you seem to understand the situations fairly well, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Nothing taken as such

[Subotan]

Ghana's not bad either. (AFAIK)

Mhm, Obama visited there recently to acclaim it for it's democratic progress.

[al Roumi]

Exactly what I said no?

Yeah but the difference is that you say Egypt has a crap democracy because Egyptian people/society can't handle/don't want democracy.

I think we have to recognise that societies look different after a period of a particular kind of rule, be it capitalist, democracy, communist, dictatorship etc. If you were to look at France prior to 1780, would you think it was suitable for democratic rule?

Also, what do you think would make a country suitable for democratic rule? Because from the sound of what you are saying, it sounds like a country would have to already be a democracy...

[Fragony]

Yeah but the difference is that you say Egypt has a crap democracy because Egyptian people/society can't handle/don't want democracy.

I think we have to recognise that societies look different after a period of a particular kind of rule, be it capitalist, democracy, communist, dictatorship etc. If you were to look at France prior to 1780, would you think it was suitable for democratic rule?

Also, what do you think would make a country suitable for democratic rule? Because from the sound of what you are saying, it sounds like a country would have to already be a democracy...

No I said that it's complex, it is, we simply can't expect the same from a devided people, here we fought things out and there we cut things up, look at Africa's borders. All African nations are are a joke, they are western inventions. Can we at least be honost about that

[al Roumi]

No I said that it's complex, it is, we simply can't expect the same from a devided people, here we fought things out and there we cut things up, look at Africa's borders. All African nations are are a joke, they are western inventions. Can we at least be honost about that

Certainly, you are right on all counts, but I don't know if in practice these issues are more of a handicap than a death knell.

For example, who would have thought in the 1970s that Spain's democracy would stick after 40 years of dictatorship?

Paul Collier's analysis of democracies in developping countries is interesting, even if his recomendations are a bit fruity, not to mention interventionalist!

[Idaho]

You have to compare countries with similar economic situations to even approach a reasonable comparison. I thought that was so obvious I didn't need to stipulate.

[al Roumi]

You have to compare countries with similar economic situations to even approach a reasonable comparison. I thought that was so obvious I didn't need to stipulate.

well yah. But surely more than just economics? no?

[Idaho]

well yah. But surely more than just economics? no?

Economic mode defines political superstructure. Political structure is the very expression of economics.

[al Roumi]

Economic mode defines political superstructure. Political structure is the very expression of economics.

I'm not sure about that tbh. I'm aware of evidence that democracies (on average) promote an extra percentage point or so of growth but I'm not convinced you can be so cock-sure of the particular causality of a country's economy on its political structure. Could you explain what you are getting at?

[Idaho]

I'm not sure about that tbh. I'm aware of evidence that democracies (on average) promote an extra percentage point or so of growth but I'm not convinced you can be so cock-sure of the particular causality of a country's economy on its political structure. Could you explain what you are getting at?

This is basic political theory guys - nothing radical.

[Fragony]

You have to compare countries with similar economic situations to even approach a reasonable comparison. I thought that was so obvious I didn't need to stipulate.

There really aren't any economy's to compare to draw any conclusion whatsoever, unless you want to live in the alternative reality that is social theory. If things would be better it would be better, is that really a point?

[Idaho]

There really aren't any economy's to compare to draw any conclusion whatsoever, unless you want to live in the alternative reality that is social theory. If things would be better it would be better, is that really a point?

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are the only non-western nations which have a similar level of western wealth...and unamazingly, they have similar capitalist democracies.

[Fragony]

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are the only non-western nations which have a similar level of western wealth...and unamazingly, they have similar capitalist democracies.

Yes and my little pony also has 4 legs, giraffes as well but the have longer necks and are yellow

[Idaho]

Yes and my little pony also has 4 legs, giraffes as well but the have longer necks and are yellow

I offer examples time after time Fragony, and you just make unbased assertions.