Brécourt Manor Assault

[Fisherking]

I knew you would like that link.
But!
You just don’t get it do you.
I am not in a contest and not your opponent.
The attacks as you call them keep asking you to prove your allegations or stop accusing people of things you can’t prove.
I have pointed out some things about language and a few other points. I am sorry you see them as attacks.
The data doesn’t provide proof for your charges. The data will not provide proof for what you have charged.
If you found a battle log from a tank unit saying that two tanks engaged 105mm artillery pieces at the exact grid coordinates it would still need eyewitness accounts saying they acted in support of the 506th and who is to say that the tank commanders coordinates were not off by a grid square.
You are working on feeling.
Stick to what you can prove and stop taking things so personally.


edit: PJ
If you have felt attacked, stop for a moment and reflect on how the men and families of those men might feel.
Your assumptions and accusations will not make them more forthcoming. It will only cause ill feelings and not aid your endeavor.

[TinCow]

This is a very interesting thread, thank you PJ and Fisher. This is exactly the kind of problem that historians have to deal with in all areas of the subject, and it's very interesting to see it pop up in such a recent and well-documented event. Thanks again for the good debate.

Interestingly, I searched for the citation records of the Silver Star winners listed for this engagement in the database I linked to earlier to cross reference them with that of Winters and found not one of them, although there were many other Silver Star winners from the war. Maybe it is incomplete?

This question I can answer from professional knowledge. The database is indeed incomplete because it is unofficial. There is, unfortunately, no centralized database which records decorations or citations for any awards below the Medal of Honor. This is a serious oversight in military records keeping, but it has been like this for so long that the military is unwilling to devote the resources to tracking down and digitizing all of the available records. All serious work being done on these databases are being done by amateurs. In fact, the amateurs are currently so much more knowledgable about the historical awards/citations that the military contacts them when it needs the information and a brief internal search comes up empty.

Here's an article about the guy who assembled the Military Times database you linked to. That article says that (as of May 2010) the database has 200,000 entries, but that it only contains about 40% of all awards above Bronze Star. That's a LOT of missing information.

[Fisherking]

Resources and further reading:

William "Wild Bill" Guarnere, website and forum
http://www.wildbillguarnere.com/

Courtesy of World War II Magazine
This is an interview out of the Band of Brothers special edition of World War II Magazine with Richard D. Winters.
http://www.menofeasycompany.com/home...php?page_id=21

I tried the Magazine and could find no searchable archives but articles perhaps issue by issue.
Diligent searching may provide more information and perhaps on other individuals.

Band of Brothers special edition of World War II Magazine
Collector's edition of World War II Presents publications about Band of Brothers. 14 articles and 11 interviews related to this period of World War II history. 98 pages (2004?)

Stephen Ambrose‘s difficulties with the truth:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2010/0...ta_talk_rayner
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...revisited.html

Ambrose‘s actions should not extend to the individuals covered in his books. This is a dangerous and unfair assumption.

[PanzerJaeger]

I knew you would like that link.
But!
You just don’t get it do you.
I am not in a contest and not your opponent.

Certainly not, but at the time I thought you were raising substantive points about the account that I dutifully attempted to address, scouring the internet for sources that could be linked to and searching my own books to insure that I had my facts correct down to company level in these units. What I didn't get was that, in actuality, you apparently had no interest in the facts surrounding the account and were only interested in casting aspersions. Had this been the Backroom, I would have simply ignored your posturing from the outset instead of embarking on the collosal waste of my time this exchange has been. A more perceptive person would have done so when you demanded military experience in order to question veteran's accounts.

Stick to what you can prove and stop taking things so personally.

Yes, maybe I'm taking things too personally.

Thus far all I see is conjecture, assumption, and you behaving like a propaganda origin for the Third Reich.

This question I can answer from professional knowledge. The database is indeed complete because it is unofficial. There is, unfortunately, no centralized database which records decorations or citations for any awards below the Medal of Honor. This is a serious oversight in military records keeping, but it has been like this for so long that the military is unwilling to devote the resources to tracking down and digitizing all of the available records. All serious work being done on these databases are being done by amateurs. In fact, the amateurs are currently so much more knowledgable about the historical awards/citations that the military contacts them when it needs the information and a brief internal search comes up empty.

Here's an article about the guy who assembled the Military Times database you linked to. That article says that (as of May 2010) the database has 200,000 entries, but that it only contains about 40% of all awards above Bronze Star. That's a LOT of missing information.

Thanks for the information. It is amazing, considering all the trivial things that they do document, that they wouldn't have a system in place for military citations.

I have joined wildbillguarnere.com in an effort to track down his unit citation (one of his family members runs the site I think), but it seems somewhat dead. I haven't even been approved to post by an admin in five days.

[TinCow]

I just realized my post said: "The database is indeed complete because it is unofficial." That should have read INCOMPLETE instead of complete.

[Fisherking]

PJ:

My early wording was too abrupt.

However, from what you were asserting I felt the points were valid.

In some studies deeper insight is necessary to place things in a proper context.

Simply reading off the data does not tell a complete story.

Remember that the data set we are dealing with comes from war and the particular events from combat.

Many things get mangled including the data. Individual combat may be the most stressful environment there is. Time may seem to stop, be compressed or even nonlinear. All that is is before you and you feel alone.

Having insight into highly stressful circumstances and being aware of the environment can be key factors.

That is why I said it is difficult to make conclusions based on the citation written by another party.

The link to Winters’ Interview shows when he believes the tanks arrived. We don’t know who wrote the citation or from what sources (individuals’ interviews) the historian compiled the time line of events.

From his tracings it is apparent he made quite a few judgment calls.

I know it sounds complex and it is.

Further, you made some statements where I was sure you were giving too or too little much weight to things I have dealt with directly.

Lacking expearance with the military can cause one to think they are dealing with absolute fact, when it could hardly be futher from the truth in some circimstances. Assuming all training knowledge is pertanent and accessable in combat is fancy.

I didn’t intend to sound bluff or rude and given time I would have phrased some things differently.

Shamefully, I was press for time in my early posts and rushed the statements without full forethought.