This is how backwards education in California is.

[Fisherking]

ACIN:

You need a wider range of people than just the parents of school aged children to start with.

Getting the public at large to understand the importance of education and becoming involved is what you want.

In quite a few areas large employers have gotten involved, which is a start.

I don’t know that passing laws would help much. One of those people meeting with a board member and persuading them is all it takes to bypass such things and you can’t have them fallowed, nor would you want to.

Textbooks themselves are a problem. Many are just bad, most are biased one way or the other. But they are way overpriced and with frequent new editions, mainly for the money with few changes. Often they are not reviewed and taken on recommendation sight unseen. If they were not so expensive it would be better to allow course teaches to chose their own texts but it is a big money industry and you might find more corruption at various levels than you would even imagine.

[a completely inoffensive name]

ACIN:

You need a wider range of people than just the parents of school aged children to start with.

Getting the public at large to understand the importance of education and becoming involved is what you want.

In quite a few areas large employers have gotten involved, which is a start.

I don’t know that passing laws would help much. One of those people meeting with a board member and persuading them is all it takes to bypass such things and you can’t have them fallowed, nor would you want to.

Textbooks themselves are a problem. Many are just bad, most are biased one way or the other. But they are way overpriced and with frequent new editions, mainly for the money with few changes. Often they are not reviewed and taken on recommendation sight unseen. If they were not so expensive it would be better to allow course teaches to chose their own texts but it is a big money industry and you might find more corruption at various levels than you would even imagine.

It is quite apparent that the public who does not have children attending school do not really care about education period. They can have their say, but to get people involved who are not impacted by what the curriculum is, is near impossible. That is just the reality of the situation.

To get the public opinion of education shifted so that they understand the importance of education is to change the society of Americans. There has always been a large current of anti-intellectualism and the attitude of the self made man who didn't need fancy institutions or higher education to become a success. That solution is more impractical than the ones I am proposing in my opinion.

Depending on what the rules for the school board already are it doesn't necessarily follow that courting one particular member allows you to bypass county laws. If the law says get these signatures or they can't look at it, then that is the law. They could simply ask a member they have courted to propose it themselves, but this is an inherent flaw in the school board system period and there is nothing we can do to fix it. Most likely though, the same people asking for stupid changes and banning books are the kind of people too disconnected from reality to be the kind of person that will be able to network themselves in the county level politics. In the end, in order to stop such an action would be the removal of the school board itself, and you have already expressed a hesitation to doing such a thing. Besides, if the word gets out board member x is a pet to individual y, then x will (in theory) be voted out and someone else will come in and hopefully they will reverse the tainted policy.

I really have not experienced an issue of textbooks being biased, maybe I am not reading enough political science or history textbooks. But however, you pointed out that the textbook problem is bigger than the individual county can handle. I agree, but to be quite honest, there is nothing you can do about it. Two or three companies publish 90% of the textbooks and they have a tight control of that oligopoly. You can't do anything abou that except enforce federal anti trust laws to break it up. You must also have publishing companies be able to publish the same textbooks otherwise they are still the sole supplier of a book that thousands of teachers and students need. For the most part, I am not advocating a change in the textbooks that high schools use, because it really is a whole nother issue to tackle that should be taken separately from the problem of education reform.

However if you want a simple solution to the textbook price issue, this is the most realistic solution: Mandate that all textbooks be commercialized digitally as well in paper form. Once they are on the internet, the (insert adjective based on your view of piracy) truth is that the students will not tolerate buying such ridiculous high prices and will download all their textbooks illegally for free.

[Fisherking]

Employers should be interested in the education of their future employees, wouldn’t you agree?

Anti-intellectualism is not a real problem. You have a few that will come out with the “those who can do & those who can’t teach” line but they are not the majority. Most people realize that those successful few got their education by determination and were self taught. A though proposition. Sometimes those who see themselves as intellectuals can be the bigger problem. Snobbishness is not an endearing trait and often that is how it is perceived.

Frequently, you find people have had bad experience with school and can’t let go of the issue. Most people just want their children to do well.

Laws will always be circumvented. Every issue coming before a school board can’t have a requirement of signatures or nothing will get done. Individual board members must be able to bring up issues and points for discussion and vote. That is what I was trying to point out.

As to textbooks, , I once saw an elementary mathematics text book that used examples and word problems based around the United Nations and a feminist agenda.

That was a clear formula to set off the talk-radio crowd. Would you like to be the one answering the phones when Johnny or Jane got home with that book?

Authors who reveal their political views in some way in the text is one thing but when someone writes to influence political views at tax payers’ expense, it is quite different, don’t you think?

At the same time we can’t violate a persons rights to intellectual property by requiring it to be in the public domain.

It is clear that we are not doing everything right. Some how we need to figure out what other countries, like Finland are doing and see what can be incorporated.

Most of our failings are at the lower grade levels. American collages and Universities are still among the worlds best.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Employers should be interested in the education of their future employees, wouldn’t you agree?

Anti-intellectualism is not a real problem. You have a few that will come out with the “those who can do & those who can’t teach” line but they are not the majority. Most people realize that those successful few got their education by determination and were self taught. A though proposition. Sometimes those who see themselves as intellectuals can be the bigger problem. Snobbishness is not an endearing trait and often that is how it is perceived.

Frequently, you find people have had bad experience with school and can’t let go of the issue. Most people just want their children to do well.

Laws will always be circumvented. Every issue coming before a school board can’t have a requirement of signatures or nothing will get done. Individual board members must be able to bring up issues and points for discussion and vote. That is what I was trying to point out.

As to textbooks, , I once saw an elementary mathematics text book that used examples and word problems based around the United Nations and a feminist agenda.

That was a clear formula to set off the talk-radio crowd. Would you like to be the one answering the phones when Johnny or Jane got home with that book?

Authors who reveal their political views in some way in the text is one thing but when someone writes to influence political views at tax payers’ expense, it is quite different, don’t you think?

At the same time we can’t violate a persons rights to intellectual property by requiring it to be in the public domain.

It is clear that we are not doing everything right. Some how we need to figure out what other countries, like Finland are doing and see what can be incorporated.

Most of our failings are at the lower grade levels. American collages and Universities are still among the worlds best.

Not really. Employers will pay for your Masters Degree if you agree to work for them, but I don't see any employer willing to pay for someones undergraduate (at least not on a large scale).

Anti-intellectualism may not be a problem but apathy certainly is. You have the public able to change the California Constitution of a whim and if there is one thing it has shown, it is that they do not care about education because most of them have no tie to the education system. To get everyone involved is just impossible, how are you going to do it anyway? You must present an incentive of some sort, which means legislation or using public funds. I simply disagree that the larger public has shown anything but contempt for the public education system because quite frankly if they didn't, then we would be having a much different discussion on this to begin with! It is always blame the teachers and the teachers union, don't bother to look at the inherent flaws of the system, which goes to show how much people's opinions are influenced by their bad experiences in the system.

Yes, most people want their children to do well. Aaaaand end of thought. Because that is how much thinking goes into the public education system nowadays besides, "what are those greedy teachers asking for now?". Everyone wants their child to do well, but all they do is drop them off, pick them up, ask how was it, child says "it was good" and the parent goes no further. If people cared, then we wouldn't be in this mess. The only reason why it has gotten this bad is precisely because no one cares enough to do something or learn beyond the talking points. Reform has been needed for 30+ years now and the only thing that we have gotten done is No Child Left Behind which has only made things worse imo.

That argument taken to its logical conclusion means we should not have laws at all. If all of them are going to be circumvented anyway, why bother? Just because the enforcement is not perfect doesn't mean it is worthless.

I never argued that every issue needs signature, nor did I say that school board members can't bring up topics on their own. You must have misinterpreted me. I said school board members can bring up their own topics. So I agree with you. I also said that signatures should only be needed if someone wants to change the curriculum or ban a book (AKA wants to dictate what everyone elses kids are learning). Although like I said earlier, I tihnk it should be illegal to ban a book period.

That's a shame about that math textbook, although I would need to see it for myself. Good thing there are a million different math textbooks all teaching the same material.

If you want to limit the impact of teaching a book that is biased then simply allow the individual school districts to be able to choose whatever textbook they want as long as it is deemed satisfactory in teaching the standards of the state and federal guidelines for the curriculum.

Ok, so there really is no other way than to cut the cost of books down. You get government to force the price of books down in however way you want it, or you let the free market continue to put the price point at where it currently stands. There really is no other options. The price of books imo, is just a red herring from the real problems that are causing kids to do poorly. Overpriced and biased books are not ruining education, so let us focus on the other more important aspects.

I agree we are not doing everything right, far from it. If you could highlight a few things from Finland you wish to see implemented here, that would be great.

Yes, the real problem is the K-12 grades. Universities and colleges are operating marvelously because they (until recently in California) are getting adequate funding and they are controlled and operated differently than K-12 schools. So it is quite apparent that the problem isn't that public funded school in general is a massively failed experiment, the problem lies within the constructs of the modern school district set up that all K-12 schools operate under. Which is what I am trying to get at here and propose solutions for.

[Fisherking]

I wish I remembered the name of the text book too...
I am not well versed on the ins and outs of the Finish school system. I know they have been leader in international comparisons for some time, though they dropped last year a bit. And I know they require children learn at least one musical instrument.

German schools however, are much different. After the primary grades parents and children decide their next step. One level is basically a trade school, one intermediate, and the last is collage prepatory. They have different year requirement and the only one that offers what you would consider a high school diploma is the latter. If marks fall below the expectable level a student changes to the next lower school. At least that is how it works at the top level. Graduation requirements are also of a higher standard than you find in US schools.
It doesn’t mean that the other schools educate to a lower standard but rather one with a different focus.
Those completing the mid level school system can attend university but have to meet further requirements.
That is a gross over simplification but a general idea.
It doesn’t eliminate, but dose reduce the peer pressure for bad grades.

While I have a bit of a libertarian bent I wouldn’t quite advocate the elimination of all laws. I am just unsure that this would have the intended effect.

Growing up, I attended both public and privet schools, though boarding schools are significantly different than I imagine privet schools of the ‘70 onward. We had class sizes of 12 to 16 and teachers of considerable experience and standing. That was when I grasped that knowledge was worth having and expanding.

Most schools can’t afford or can’t get that kind of faculty.

Finding good teachers has never been easy. Pay helps but it is not the only issue. At one point, it was argued that teacher pay should be kept low so you only attracted the dedicated. Class size is particularly important when you have inexperienced teachers. Most communities can’t afford the buildings or the salaries to have smaller class sizes and the overhead is far too great in most states to adequately fund what they have with today’s priorities.

Governments have the funds, it is more a matter of where they chose to spend them. That is a political issue that neither right nor left is willing to fix. Both will pay lip service to the problems and say the other side won’t go along, but it won’t get them as many votes as some other projects they have in mind.

[Moros]

I wish I remembered the name of the text book too...
I am not well versed on the ins and outs of the Finish school system. I know they have been leader in international comparisons for some time, though they dropped last year a bit. And I know they require children learn at least one musical instrument.

German schools however, are much different. After the primary grades parents and children decide their next step. One level is basically a trade school, one intermediate, and the last is collage prepatory. They have different year requirement and the only one that offers what you would consider a high school diploma is the latter. If marks fall below the expectable level a student changes to the next lower school. At least that is how it works at the top level. Graduation requirements are also of a higher standard than you find in US schools.
It doesn’t mean that the other schools educate to a lower standard but rather one with a different focus.
Those completing the mid level school system can attend university but have to meet further requirements.
That is a gross over simplification but a general idea.
It doesn’t eliminate, but dose reduce the peer pressure for bad grades.

While I have a bit of a libertarian bent I wouldn’t quite advocate the elimination of all laws. I am just unsure that this would have the intended effect.

Growing up, I attended both public and privet schools, though boarding schools are significantly different than I imagine privet schools of the ‘70 onward. We had class sizes of 12 to 16 and teachers of considerable experience and standing. That was when I grasped that knowledge was worth having and expanding.

Most schools can’t afford or can’t get that kind of faculty.

Finding good teachers has never been easy. Pay helps but it is not the only issue. At one point, it was argued that teacher pay should be kept low so you only attracted the dedicated. Class size is particularly important when you have inexperienced teachers. Most communities can’t afford the buildings or the salaries to have smaller class sizes and the overhead is far too great in most states to adequately fund what they have with today’s priorities.

Governments have the funds, it is more a matter of where they chose to spend them. That is a political issue that neither right nor left is willing to fix. Both will pay lip service to the problems and say the other side won’t go along, but it won’t get them as many votes as some other projects they have in mind.

Here in Belgium we've got a similar system, which I think works wonderfully. We also tend to get more than decent scores on those international education comparison tests. We've got ASO, TSO, BSO and BUSO type of schools. ASO focusses on people who will be going to study further after graduating (thus uni-prep). It has also a couple of different curriculae. You don't have that much liberty in choosing which courses you want to follow, but you can choose a package with a focus on either this or that. Some of those packages are considered more difficult and hence usuallly also encompasses the better learners or brighters kiddos. But those 'packages' also make sure that those who are good in languages, doesn't need to be necessarily champions in maths as well. TSO is more technical and is sometimes considered a step below. It really depends though as some of the packages here are on ASO level, but just with a focus on technical courses like electricity, mechanics,... but often still feature heavy maths. And can be a good prep for someone planning to study industrial engineering at college for example. Though it also has some packages that aren't that fit as a preparation for uni, but some of those do make a good craftsmen out of you. Next comes BSO wich is for people who don't learn that easily (or just don't learn) and plan to get working right after college. Lastly we have the Buso schools for those with serious learning problems, mental issues, less gifted or handicapped. (Well you also have those art schools and sport schools, but they are not important)
And I think it is a very good system. The packages make sure you have a decent basic knowledge and understand across a various amount of subjects. Without kids being forced to follow classes they don't like or are good at too much. It also bundles kids with the same ease or difficulty of learning together, which makes it easier to keep everyone interested and learning. Note kids are never forced to get to an 'easier' school or package, but can be advised to when not getting good grades or failing.

Over here teachers can fill in what they want to teach a lot by themselves, but they have to achieve certain things as well. This is good as well as that way you can adapt to your class. There's a focus on understanding as well, especially in the later years.

Actually I think this system is about the best. The only thing bad about it is that they want to change aspects of it every now and then. Usually for the worst.

Also I think it's ridiculous and sad that teachers in the US don't want to something extra after their hours. Though it sometimes gets silly over here, I can't believe the attitude of American teachers on this point.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also I think it's ridiculous and sad that teachers in the US don't want to something extra after their hours. Though it sometimes gets silly over here, I can't believe the attitude of American teachers on this point.

The thing to remember about education in America is that no one respects teachers. And by that, I mean they don't get treated well as human beings. If a student fails, first thing a parent does is yell at the teacher (although this isn't the case most of the time, it happens a lot when you teach 4 classes with 35-40 kids each). When the public starts discussing the issues it always comes down to teacher salary. Even if it was a directed meeting towards a specific problem, someone always brings up the teachers as part of the problem, which cause resentment. Many teachers probably feel that the system and everyone in general is out to get them, which makes them unwilling to put in extra time for students since they won't get any perks or recognition for going beyond for others. Also, kids in America absolutely hate school from the time they are in 6th grade, and many act like ******** in class every single day, which is just rude for the teachers to go through all the time.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I wish I remembered the name of the text book too...
I am not well versed on the ins and outs of the Finish school system. I know they have been leader in international comparisons for some time, though they dropped last year a bit. And I know they require children learn at least one musical instrument.

German schools however, are much different. After the primary grades parents and children decide their next step. One level is basically a trade school, one intermediate, and the last is collage prepatory. They have different year requirement and the only one that offers what you would consider a high school diploma is the latter. If marks fall below the expectable level a student changes to the next lower school. At least that is how it works at the top level. Graduation requirements are also of a higher standard than you find in US schools.
It doesn’t mean that the other schools educate to a lower standard but rather one with a different focus.
Those completing the mid level school system can attend university but have to meet further requirements.
That is a gross over simplification but a general idea.
It doesn’t eliminate, but dose reduce the peer pressure for bad grades.

While I have a bit of a libertarian bent I wouldn’t quite advocate the elimination of all laws. I am just unsure that this would have the intended effect.

Growing up, I attended both public and privet schools, though boarding schools are significantly different than I imagine privet schools of the ‘70 onward. We had class sizes of 12 to 16 and teachers of considerable experience and standing. That was when I grasped that knowledge was worth having and expanding.

Most schools can’t afford or can’t get that kind of faculty.

Finding good teachers has never been easy. Pay helps but it is not the only issue. At one point, it was argued that teacher pay should be kept low so you only attracted the dedicated. Class size is particularly important when you have inexperienced teachers. Most communities can’t afford the buildings or the salaries to have smaller class sizes and the overhead is far too great in most states to adequately fund what they have with today’s priorities.

Governments have the funds, it is more a matter of where they chose to spend them. That is a political issue that neither right nor left is willing to fix. Both will pay lip service to the problems and say the other side won’t go along, but it won’t get them as many votes as some other projects they have in mind.

I thought that standardized tests determine the path for students in the German education program not the parents and children themselves.

One of the key things you highlighted was that your private schooling had classes of 12-16 which is nearly perfect class room sizes. You can't get there with public education however unless you pay out more money for additional schools to be built and teachers to be hired. The schools can afford whatever they want it all depends on how much the public wants to give them. Right now, they are not giving enough.

Teacher pay as it stands right now imo is already low enough to the point where you can argue we are trying out the philosophy that we are only getting the dedicated. I wouldn't change teacher salary. So from my understanding of what you are saying, we are in agreement there. That last sentence speaks the truth of what is exactly part of the problem, communities and states can't afford it. We need higher amounts of money going towards education, not to increase teacher salaries but to build more schools and hire more teachers. This is the simple fact that needs to be addressed and it isn't going to change any time soon however. The state is going to have to change its priorities to make education one of the more important causes again. If not, then this entire situation is doomed from the start and we will only see more decline. People however (like I have said many times already), do not care. They will not pay anymore than they have to. Which means you get complaints about more teachers being hired because they think that 35 is a perfectly acceptable amount of students per class, when it absolutely isn't.

Your last two sentences are completely true. But this is why I started this thread and why we are having this conversation. Because we don't want lip service any more and we are willing to fix it. People like us need to take charge of the debate if we want to see any sort of change to occur at all.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Textbooks themselves are a problem. Many are just bad, most are biased one way or the other. But they are way overpriced and with frequent new editions, mainly for the money with few changes. Often they are not reviewed and taken on recommendation sight unseen. If they were not so expensive it would be better to allow course teaches to chose their own texts but it is a big money industry and you might find more corruption at various levels than you would even imagine.

It's a typical publisher game, and not just limited to textbooks. The actual authors of the works don't really get all that much when you consider the total volume of sales. Software, music, movies, books are all priced not at their intrinsic value but at what the market will bear. If you want to have the textbooks priced at something closer to their intrinsic value, you have to move them out of the dynamics of the “free market”. Publishers want money, not the gratitude of parents. Parents have no choice but to cough up, so you see where all this is going.

It's not corruption, per se. It's the dynamics of letting the market decide on price.